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Edmund McKinnon
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 Posted - November 04 2002 : 5:57:43 PM
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While I still believe that LOTM is one of the greatest F&I films of all time,the older that I get,the more that I see that the book & film have very little to do with actual history.
For example,on Saturday,Nov.2,2002 at the 14th annual F&I Seminar in Jumonville,Pa.the keynote speaker was Dr.Stephen Brumwell,author of RedCoats(www.amazon.com).At this time ,he pointed out that the bulk of the soldiers who were at Ft.William Henry during the siege were actually at a fortified encampment outside of the fort.At least half of these were Provincials.The Massacre Valley scene never happened,but instead occurred inside the fort as the last elements of the column were leaving.There were also some British naval vessels docked in the lake outside of the fort that were abandoned during the withdrawl.
A native american authority at the seminar informed me that the old sachem at the end of the movie would never have made the decision to spare Alice & Cora and condemn Major Duncan Haywood.Rather,this would have been up to the women of the tribe.
A PBS special several years ago also brought light to the fact that Col.Munro survived and made it to Ft.Edward while Alice & Cora were killed and thrown into a well inside of Ft.William Henry.Montcalm also personally got involved in the fort massacre where he bared his breast and invited the savages to kill him as he had given his word to the English that they could have safe passage out.
Another independent source confirmed that prior to the surrender,a small pox epidemic had raged within the fort and claimed the life of the brother of Robert Rogers(of the Ranger fame).When the indians dug up the bodies of the infected victims to desecrate them,they contracted the disease,and spread it among their tribes.
I don't see why Michael Mann had to dispense with many of these details to make this movie.Any thoughts?
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 04 2002 : 7:28:29 PM
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The reason, at least from my perspective, is that it would not have been as "dramatic". Plus if the movie (or book) was historically accurate, then you would not have been able to have the 'love story' dominate the movie. All in all, I watch the movie for the clothes/uniforms, weapons/equipment, music/sound effects and the background locales/buildings.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - November 04 2002 : 8:32:00 PM
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LOTM is a fictional story set in a historical event, so it could never be totally historically accurate. But it could have been more accurate than it was, without diminishing the story. I believe Cooper did a better job than Mann with the history. The two main areas I see where they could have improved the film historically, are the uniforms, and the "Massacre" scene.
As I've mentioned before, I would have loved to have seen a better representation of the regiments in their uniforms, both regular and provincial. It wouldn't have been that hard to get the uniforms right. It has always bugged me that the predominate uniform in the film, is a buff faced regimental designed to represent the British. This was the color of the 27th Inniskilling's regimental. Nowhere in the film do you see the distinctive orange facings of Munro's 35th, and there's only a handful of blue faced uniforms representing the 60th here and there. Plus, they threw in the Highlanders for some reason, they weren't even there at the seige! And you never see any provincials in their uniforms. Provincials almost always outnumbered the regulars during the campaigns of the Lake George/Champlain Corridor.
After the British abandoned the fort and moved to their fortified encampment (the rectangular provincial camp surrounded by an earthen breastwork), the Natives rushed into the fort and killed and mutilated the sick and wounded British soldiers who their comrades couldn't move. The British spent the night in the fortified encampment. In the morning when the British were marching to Ft. Edward, several hundred natives descended on the rear of the column as they left the encampment and started killing, taking captives, scalping etc. The rest of the army high-tailed it as fast as they could cross-country to Ft.Edward. This is pretty much how Cooper described it in his novel.
The story about Alice & Cora being thrown into the well seems pretty legendary to me. As far as I know, Alice and Cora are completely fictional, and when archaeologist David Starbuck excavated the well he didn't find any human remains.
CT•Ranger
"Each day as we become more mechanized, we become...less aware, always more under the influence of powers beyond our comprehension." -Eric Sloane |
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 04 2002 : 10:59:24 PM
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I agree with you, Ranger. I think that Cooper wanted to emphasize more on the event, and help generate interest in that period. Where as Mann was more interested in making a love story, with some action to draw male viewers. Both are guilty of taking liberties with the truth, but for different reasons.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
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Edmund McKinnon
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Posted - November 04 2002 : 11:03:37 PM
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They didn't mention Roger's Rangers either.The PBS documentary stated tht Munro's daughters were killed and thrown into the well.Maybe Michael Mann was the technical advisor for that one EM
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 04 2002 : 11:38:36 PM
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PBS, ha!!! This is the same brain trust putting together the 3-hour documentary on the French and Indian War. Good to see my tax dollars hard at work, thank you LBJ, you SOB!!!!!
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
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richfed
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Posted - November 05 2002 : 09:13:03 AM
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Excellent topic, boys ... one that I dealt with, however briefly, in my little guide booklet that started this all, On the Trail of the Last of the Mohicans. Glad you started it, Edmund! Allow me to put in my two cents worth [along with some of our Web Site links!] ...
First of all, remember this: By Mann's own admission, the film is one third Cooper (1826), one third Dunne screenplay (1936), and one third original creation. So, he wasn't starting with 100% historical accuracy to begin with. Much of the topsy-turvy characterization stems directly from Dunne, for example.
Secondly, I have no idea where that PBS [mis]information comes from. Sounds like fantasy, if you ask me. Nowhere, while researching our Colonel Monro: The Scotsman did we come across anything like that. To the contrary, very little of a personal nature seems to be known about Monro.
And, finally, regarding the massacre at Fort William Henry: On pages 31 & 32 in the guide booklet, I talk about this very thing. Here's my take. What is depicted on film sounds very much like what a Massachusetts militiaman, Jonathan Carver, stated in his initial accounts. It is important to remember that he was one of the first to flee the scene. He reported what he thought was happening from the little he experienced. Sensationalism is nothing new, and was prevalent even back in 1757 [surprise, surprise!]. From the book:
quote:
After remembering hearing a war whoop, [Carver] says, "men, women, and children were dispatched in the most wanton and cruel manner, and immediately scalped. Many of the savages drank the blood of their victims, as it flowed warm from the fatal wound." He estimated white casualties at about 1500, describing the scene as "horrid".
Do I hear "Magua"?
So, from the very beginning, this was an inaccurate story! It went from Carver, to the American public, to Cooper, all the way to Mann! Amazing. No wonder it looks as it does on the big screen! Anyway, our version of the "real" story can be found here: Fort William Henry: The Siege & Massacre. Throw that all in with our Braddock's Defeat theory, and maybe it all makes sense.
Maybe ...
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 05 2002 : 09:44:47 AM
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I agree with you analysis, Sachem Rich. When a story, especially one from a witness who 'bugged out' early, goes through several sources it is bound to change, privataions are described as harder, the enemy is more numerous and tougher (10 foot tall and bullet proof) and the whole account appears Biblical in proportion.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - November 05 2002 : 3:02:45 PM
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The archaeology of Ft. William Henry is fascinating and can tell us a lot of interesting details about the seige and "massacre." Forensic anthropologists studied the remains of some of the British soldiers found within a casement which had been used as a hospital under one of the barracks buildings. These were men who were probably killed by the Natives upon the abandonment of the fort, and were in their late teens and early twenties. Analysis of the remains revealed graphic evidence about the physical strains inflicted on their bodies, and how they were killed. Many of the skeletens had herniated discs which showed they were carrying very heavy loads. Pitting in the skull bones revealed that one was anemic. There was also evidence of tuberculosis and arthritis. Cut marks on one skull suggests scalping, and cut marks in the abdominal area of several of the skeletons suggests disembowelment, plus sevral kneecaps had been shot off suggesting torture. Another skeleton was found with eight musket balls in it. And another indiviual had probably been hit with canister, breaking his ribs inward. There were also several amputations. Another gruesome discovery was a mortar shell found inside a barrack building with a human scalp stuck to the surface, it had probably taken the head off one of the fort’s defenders before landing in the sand upside down, which extinguished the fuse. There were many many more interesting discoveries at the fort. David Starbuck’s “The Great Warpath, British Military Sites from Albany to Crown Point” gives an in depth look at the archaeology of the fort annd other sites.
CT•Ranger
"Each day as we become more mechanized, we become...less aware, always more under the influence of powers beyond our comprehension." -Eric Sloane
Edited by - CT•Ranger on November 05 2002 3:06:18 PM |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - November 05 2002 : 8:34:45 PM
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And don't forget the outrageous size of the French field pieces and mortars! It's hysterical. Just imagine trying to drag those things through the forest from Carillon to William Henry, you certainly couldn't load one of those on a bateaux. They would of needed only one of those monsters to reduce the fort! The Patriot had a similar problem. Why must Hollywood directors insist on having such huge unrealistic artillery pieces? Some have suggested it's a Freudian thing.
CT•Ranger
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Edmund McKinnon
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Posted - November 05 2002 : 9:59:30 PM
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Seems to me that enough exciting stuff happened in history,to have to leave it out regarding Ft.William Henry.Cecil B.DeMille did it also in"The UnConquored"when he had Virginian Chris Holden put all of the dead Highlanders from the Battle of Bushy Run into wagons and send them to Fort Pitt to lift the siege of chief Guyasuta.The Crown forces won at Bushy Run and there were plenty of "live" troops around to march towards the fort,so there was no need to fool the indians in this regard.In reality,the dead at Bushy Run were left unburied for a month in order that Col.Bouquet's relief column could make haste in reaching the fort.EM
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 05 2002 : 10:24:24 PM
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Greetings Captain and Ranger, both of you once again bring very good points to the table. One question for you, Ranger, the 'Warpaths' book is one I do not have yet, do you recomend it?
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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Edmund McKinnon
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Posted - November 05 2002 : 11:17:39 PM
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I have "WarPaths"as it was required reading for my"Warfare in Colonial America(PreRev)course from AMU.I shall send it over.EM
Capt.John Graham
Cmdr.42nd Highlanders |
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 06 2002 : 03:26:04 AM
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Thanks, Captain, see you at the barracks.
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - November 06 2002 : 10:00:43 AM
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Starbuck's "The Great Warpath" is a great book. It covers Saratoga, Rogers Island & Ft. Edward, Ft. William Henry, Mount Independence, Crown Point and underwater archaeology in both Lake Champlain and Lake George. Lots of black & white photos of artifacts and good maps of the excavations. Archaeology reveals so many details we don't get from the historical documents.
CT•Ranger
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 06 2002 : 4:25:49 PM
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Well Ranger, I'll definately have to check it out. Thanks for the book ideas on King Phillip's War.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
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Two Kettles
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Posted - November 06 2002 : 5:24:18 PM
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Since this has become a "thread", I'm going to throw my two pence in. I was very involved in the "background" of MOHICANS, providing information on the British and Provincial troops of the era, and recruiting reenactor extras. Because of the demands of a new job, I was not able to actually work on set as an extra, but I know many who did.
What I find most troublesome about MOHICANS are the very points brought up here. When I and some good friends first became involved (before Michael Mann), we were told that the movie would have a "100% commitment to authenticity" -no, I'm not kidding. The MOHICANS story was to be used as a framework for a really authentic portrayal of the F&I War, with the same period feel and intensity as GLORY.
James Atcheson, costume designer for DANGEROUS LIAISONS, spent months in England researching both civilian clothing and uniforms. Most of the top people in F&I War research and reenacting were contacted and many of them involved. After Michael Mann came on, things began to change.
For example:
A master gunsmith (Hershel House, if memory serves) created a believeble 1750's rifle for Hawkeye, very much influenced by the Jaeger style, but also with influence of British fowlers and early American rifles. This was rejected by Mann, who wanted the golden age Kentucky Rambo rifle Hawkeye wound up using.
Atcheson and Mann got into it over the facings of the 35th coats. When Atcheson pointed out that this was what was historically accurate, Mann replied, "This is a movie, not a documentary". That phrase became a mantra on the set. Atcheson walked, and the costuming became less authentic.
As reenactors were recruited, more and more innacuracies became apparent. No rangers need apply - apparently they didn't want to show anybody but Hawkeye being any good in the woods. No provincial regulars need apply - they only wanted militia. But, in addition to the 35th (with wrong facings) and the 60th (with Rev War knapsacks), Mann wanted Highlanders because he thought they looked good. On the French side, only Marines would be portrayed, no Troupes de la Terre (which probably sent Montcalm spinning in his grave).
The British troops were originally supposed to be trained in Bland's, then the Norfolk Manual, and finally, they used a cobbled together drill with definitely modern influences (like the "Huzzah" when going from "Make Ready" to "Present").
When the "100% commitment to authenticity" was brought up, we were told that it had shifted to being authentic to the French War era, but not necessarily 1757; then to a general mid-18th century feel. Finally, in an interview (in Entertainment Weekly, I think) Michael Mann said basically that historical authenticity was only worthwhile if it helped him tell the story he wanted to tell the way he wanted to tell it.
Obviously, Mann's vision of the story works for a lot of people. This website is proof of that. Personally, I think the movie works very well as a popcorn action/romance. But I can't help but wonder what it might have been like if the original vision had been followed.
Two Kettles
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 06 2002 : 10:44:51 PM
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I could not have said it better myself. As far as Mr. Mann's "This is a movie, not a documentary", well you have my sympathy for having to deal with such tripe.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
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richfed
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Posted - November 07 2002 : 1:11:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Two Kettles:
Since this has become a "thread", I'm going to throw my two pence in. I was very involved in the "background" of MOHICANS, providing information on the British and Provincial troops of the era, and recruiting reenactor extras. Because of the demands of a new job, I was not able to actually work on set as an extra, but I know many who did.
What I find most troublesome about MOHICANS are the very points brought up here. When I and some good friends first became involved (before Michael Mann), we were told that the movie would have a "100% commitment to authenticity" -no, I'm not kidding. The MOHICANS story was to be used as a framework for a really authentic portrayal of the F&I War, with the same period feel and intensity as GLORY.
...
Let's just be glad it was made at all, eh??? 
I gotta ask you, Two Kettles ... why you think Michael Mann wasn't in this project from the get-go? He actually bought the rights to the Dunne screenplay, and worked on the film way before production began. It was his baby from the beginning. Not that I agree with all his decisions, but I have no problem, at all, with his "we're making a movie ..." philosophy. After all, that is what he was doing.
I know, I know ... this discussion always come up - and I agree with the prevalent reenactor stance, to a point. And, to a point, I think Mann stuck to the accuracy angle. But, he's a filmmaker ... he looks for ways to connect with an audience that is not strictly reenactor, or history buff, etc. He's looking for visuals, the familiar, etc. etc. He's telling a story ...
I know how you feel, though. I'm a Little Bighorn buff, big time. It kills me to see how Hollywood portrays the event!!! Even "Son of the Morning Star," a fairly accurate portrayal ... I'm sitting there, "Why didn't they do that?" Why didn't they do this?" It's almost a curse!
Anyway, there are valid points to both sides of this issue ... I feel very strongly both ways! |
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Edmund McKinnon
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Posted - November 07 2002 : 2:10:32 PM
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It still doesn't makes any sense why a little detail is such a bad thing.Why couldn't the 35th's facings have been correct?I also recall that Dale Dye was the military advisor for this one.While he was certainly good in:Platoon,Casualties of War,Under Siege etc.what did he know about 18th century warfare(other than we still use alot of the same tactics).As I've said previously,attention to detail is what makes a good movie great.John Sayles,are you listening?
Capt.John Graham
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - November 07 2002 : 6:58:39 PM
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The bad thing about the whole "it's a movie, not a documentary" stance, is that some people look to historical films as a source of historical authority. I know of high school teachers who have shown LOTM and other historically based films as a teaching tool. LOTM is neither a good teaching tool for literature nor history. Historicallly based films often perpetuate historical myths amongst the public who don't know better. However if films of this nature were done accurately, then they could be extremely valuable teaching tools, and more enjoyable for reenactors and history buffs.
CT•Ranger
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 08 2002 : 01:03:21 AM
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You are right, Ranger, it should not be used as a teaching tool. Entertaining, it is, but it is not educational. However, as the Captain put it, a little attention to detail in regards to uniforms, drill, etc. would not have hurt.
Your Humble Servant,
Sgt. Duncan Munro
Capt. Graham's Coy
1/42nd Royal Highlanders
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Pvt. Chauncey
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Posted - November 09 2002 : 1:53:22 PM
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Dear All,
Regarding the comment about no mention of Rogers' Rangers, it should be noted that three of the four companies of Rogers' Rangers (including his own company) were away at the Seige of Louisbourg at the time Montcalm attacked Fort William Henry. Indeed, that many British being away at Cape Breton was one reason he felt compelled to take the fort. The only company of Rogers' Rangers at the fort was that of Robert Rogers' younger brother, Richard Rogers. Richard himself had died of smallpox a couple of weeks before Montcalm's attack, and therefore it is unlikely the Rangers had much of a role to play. A few green coats in the column or on the wall amongst the fort defenders might have been appropriate, but not many.
Rogers' had his small revenge, however, as Richard's body was one of those dug up by the Indians and thus a few probably contracted and died from the smallpox his dead body still carried.
YHOS,
Pvt. Chauncey Goodrich
Rogers' Rangers
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richfed
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Posted - November 11 2002 : 07:44:13 AM
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I guess we should all remember that these criticisms are being made by those who love the movie!! 
Just some comments I'd like to interject [Lainey & I were discussing this thread on the way to the hospital yesterday]:
1 - It's not Mann's fault, nor Hollywood's in general, if a teacher uses an inaccurate film to teach their class. That's a condemnation of the educational system, more than anything. That said, I feel LOTM can be used as an educational tool [and it is, I know that for a fact - many times in conjunction with this web site! So, your comments may be playing a part!], provided it is used as a springboard toward showing the differences between fact & fiction. There can be no doubt that films like LOTM spark interest in the subject.
2 - Mann had this vision, if you will, of giving life & depth to the Indian villain, Magua. How to do so? Give him reason for his actions. Mann chose the revenge factor against Monro, thus his death. We should give Mann credit in that regard. He told the Indian story in grand fashion. I don't know, given that this is merely a story, what's the big deal?
3 - Assuming LOTM was a real account, which it isn't, it would be excellent history because it would have brought the events to vivid life. Who would really have a misinterpretation of history because of incorrect buttons? Mann had very competent military & period advisers on hand - and in many ways - he utilized them very well - whatever decisions he made, and I can't pretend to give you his inner thoughts, were probably made for the sake of his art. An example: I watched Black Hawk Down with no knowledge of the event. I wondered, "Is it good history?" I watched a documentary on the subject. In fact, it was good history. Very good history. I was amazed at how true to the real events it was; how vivid a picture it presented. Watching the film, gave me, apparently, a good understanding of the event. Now, was every detail in the soldiers' accouterments, etc. accurate? I have no idea, BUT, how would that effect my understanding of the history, anyway? Negligibly, if at all.
4 - We should all be careful about criticizing this kind of stuff too severely, lest filmmakers give it up all together and go back to John Wayne stuff [which I mostly love, btw, but you get the idea!]
Anyway, those were some of our thoughts ... |
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Pvt. Chauncey
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Posted - November 12 2002 : 09:54:36 AM
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quote:
(snip)
2 - Mann had this vision, if you will, of giving life & depth to the Indian villain, Magua. How to do so? Give him reason for his actions. Mann chose the revenge factor against Monro, thus his death. We should give Mann credit in that regard. He told the Indian story in grand fashion. I don't know, given that this is merely a story, what's the big deal?
3 - Assuming LOTM was a real account, which it isn't, it would be excellent history because it would have brought the events to vivid life. Who would really have a misinterpretation of history because of incorrect buttons? Mann had very competent military & period advisers on hand - and in many ways - he utilized them very well - whatever decisions he made, and I can't pretend to give you his inner thoughts, were probably made for the sake of his art. An example: I watched Black Hawk Down with no knowledge of the event. I wondered, "Is it good history?" I watched a documentary on the subject. In fact, it was good history. Very good history. I was amazed at how true to the real events it was; how vivid a picture it presented. Watching the film, gave me, apparently, a good understanding of the event. Now, was every detail in the soldiers' accouterments, etc. accurate? I have no idea, BUT, how would that effect my understanding of the history, anyway? Negligibly, if at all.
4 - We should all be careful about criticizing this kind of stuff too severely, lest filmmakers give it up all together and go back to John Wayne stuff [which I mostly love, btw, but you get the idea!]
(snip)
Rich,
I agree with what you said but in the case of the follow, only to a point. I thoroughly agree with the previously-made comment/question of how hard would it be to get some simple things right such as the color of the uniforms and facings, and the right haversacks? I honestly cannot see ANY reason for NOT doing those correctly. I can suppose that they used bigger cannon so that the audience would be sure to grasp the enormity of the damage the French were inflicting (yes, size does matter  ), and certain other things were done for similar effect. But why not get right what you can get right?
And in the Patriot, how hard would it be to use the right commands? I admit I have not sat through The Patriot -- when I heard the first "Ready, Aim, Fire" I turned it off and have no interest in watching it. (I did the same thing last night when the Raiders intercepted a pass from the Broncos and ran it back for a 98-yard TD -- you just know you aren't going to enjoy watching, so why bother?)
Anyway, I would like to see Hollywood be more realistic where it doesn't hurt their story-line to do so.
Oh, and totally agree about idiot teachers using LOTM as an educational film. Who is teaching the teachers???
YHOS,
Pvt. Chauncey
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SgtMunro
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September 23 2002
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Posted - November 12 2002 : 11:05:47 PM
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You know, Sachem, I've been thinking about Mann's 'vision'. Would that make Magua a sort of Anti-Hero? I know Micheal Mann is famous for going in depth into the villan's past, that was why he picked up on Thomas Harris's "Red Dragon" 16 years ago. Just look at what that started, perhaps he might spark the same interest in the F&IW arena.
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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LOTM Fact or Fantasy?
