Posted by Adele on July 27, 2000 at 16:17:49:
In Reply to: Re: The unenviable fates of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence posted by Bill R on July 27, 2000 at 13:58:06:
: I am going to stay out of this one. I AM going to stay OUT of this one. *gritting teeth*.
: I do need to ask ONE question though.......WHY is it of ALL the nations involved in the history of this continent, and in the history of the world, WE are the ONLY ones slammed all the time?
: It would be considered impolite if somebody, in discussing the Hessian soldiers of Rev War "reminded" us of what the Nazis did in Europe at every stinking opportunity. Or how Poland, Norway, Sweden, Holland, South Africa, Chekosolovia, Hungary, and many other countries had willing enlistments forming as divisions of the Waffen SS.
: Don't get me wrong...our system of government is founded on the principle of never taking your eyes off the politicians and of quesitoning everything. Not only is that a right of ours, it is a duty, since if we stop in our duty, we deserve the oppression that could result.
: However, I DO grow weary of some who jump on ANY chance to remind us in this country just how unloved we are, how oppressive, how land hungry, how unjust, how prejudiced, how self serving, how warlike, and how dirty is our historical laundry.
: Look people, the whole damn world pretty much owned slaves - or sold their people INTO slavery - yet we Americans are the only ones hammered day in and day out for it. At one time or another nearly every country on this planet has gone to war for more territory, more resources, more wealth usually belonging to its neighbor. EMPIRES were formed. Do I need to list them all?
: And yet WE are the ones labelled imperialist, warmongering etc etc.
: More than that, there are stories of the Sioux raiding down into Apache territory and leaving a trail of their dead back to their own. Uhhhhh....WHY were they down there in the first place? Various Sioux tribes owned quite a bit of the plains taken together and did not much like folks using that land for any purpose without a by-your-leave. The Iroquois were an Empire, pure and simple. So were the Huron. Many small and relativley unknown tribes no longer exist purely due to conquest of more warlike and better organized tribes.
: When did it get to be unremarkable if a person waved the flag of Holland, or Germany, or England or name any damn country you want, but if an American takes pride in his country - he is immediately "reminded" of his contemptible history and behavior?
: Every time one of these discussions comes up, I wait for the classic epithet to emerge - that we are yankee imperialist running dogs and air pirates.
: Why doesnt somebody ask why the Soviets needed all that land in the USSR, most of it barely populated, and also ask while they are at it, how they could maintain their domination of it through such terroristic means in good conscience, and yet be proud of being Soviet?
: Or why doesnt somebody ask aren't we, and shouldn't we, be afraid now that Germany has been reunited? After all, look at what they did the last time to the human race.
: Why? Because it would be argumentative, impolite, and asking for heated words from those people. And it would be out of context for any discussion of the French and Indian War, the Rev War, or the movie or that period of history.
: So I ask again, WHY must we be required to take these cheap shots at every opportunity?
: Well..........you KNEW I couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one.
: Bill R
Now, you KNOW we don't like it when you keep your mouth shut Bill!!
From what I have seen of your previous posts Bill, I think that you may have a tendency to take these discussions very personally - as a 'cheap shot' at your country to use your words. From this side of the pond, I don't see it quite the same way. I think the fact that the discussions are primarily American/English based is simply due to our communal connection - an interest in LOTM and an interest in a particular period of history. I don't believe that this particular thread is US bashing at all - it is simply a debate as to the motives of a group of people who changed the history of your country. From my point of view, I find it fascinating and highly educational since my knowledge of history is .........ahem.........limited!!
As you may have noticed, England comes in for an occasional 'cheap shot' too, and I do try not to take it as a personal affront. Occasionally the wording of a post can be verging on the offensive, eg when people act like the historical issues being discussed are happening NOW, but for the most part I think that people are taking a particular moment in time to debate in a healthy and informative way.
I thought that it was interesting what you said about flag waving though because in Britain now, the Union Jack has become an emblem of either hooliganism or racism. For me, that is a tragedy. So I DO empathise with your feelings on this subject.
I agree that we ALL have a history that we are ashamed of but ironically, in England, if the US is being critcised it is invariably about a modern day issue, not a historical one. Maybe Americans bring up their past more frequently as a form of self-critcism and that is what irks you?
We COULD have discussions about other major historical events on other continents, but I do not think that is why people come to this site - I guess that is why sometimes the discussions do seem rather one sided.
Anyhoo, that is my two-pennyworth, for what it is worth.
Adele (who loves EVERYBODY!!)
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