Posted by Elaine on July 31, 2000 at 18:34:53:
In Reply to: Re: For all those who ponder the castingof stones posted by Vita on July 31, 2000 at 12:57:40:
:
: : Zapata
: Dear Zapata....
: I am reading your posts, and understand that for many reasons, you feel frustrated. Whether I agree with the cause of your frustration, is not important. I am glad you are frustrated because at least you are feeling something, you are not just moseying through life without getting involved.
: Be that as it may... regarding reparations... hmmm...just let me throw in a monkey wrench here... and understand that I DO NOT MEAN CRIMINALS AND MURDERERS SHOULD NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR DEEDS. I find it quite amusing that we ask of reparations from the reasonably wealthier nations who seems to have a conscience (as compared to some others) for reparations. No one is asking Russia to pay up to Ukrain, or China to Tibet...
: I know many Chechens who could use plenty reparations from the Russkies. I know Azerbaijanis who would appreciate reparation from Russians and Armenians, and I know Armenians who would like reparation from Turks, Kurds, Russians...
: Oh, fact is that those hundreds of thousands who died beneath Allied bombs in Dresden, Germany... you know, they were burned alive... elderly women, children, hard working middle aged fathers, mothers, young teens who were forced into the war.... hmmm, in the name of humanity, the Allieds should pay their descendants reparations...
: Let me give you a true anecdote... my mother (an Austrian) my father (Ottoman, aka Turco/Albanian) were passing through Dresden (fleeing Russians and politicos) in the immediate aftermath of one of the Allieds bombings.... they stopped their truck because they had heard cries from beneath the piles and piles of stones and brick... desperate, heart-wrenching cries for help from two women, a child, and a little further up, of a man, was very distinct, so Mama and Papa tried to move, lift and clear the rubble with barehands... from one end of the block to the other... as they moved and the stones rocked or rolled, more people from beneath, cried out for help ... but my parents could not uncover a single person...they couldn't ... the devastation was toooo big, Mama and Papa were also starving, had not eaten in days... Mama was less than 100 pounds... Papa, who did not know he had diabetes, had a festering bullet wound in his leg, was starving and his vision was dangerously poor due to the diabetes problem which he did not know he had ... so they couldn't help those people, and a new bomb attack began, Mama and Papa did not immediately turn tail and run for SAFETY, they sat on piles of stones facing each other, and cried along with those who were buried alive. In the end, some kind passersby as they were fleeing to bunkers, pulled my parents up and if they hadn't, they would not have married later on and I would not have been born because they would have died right then and there, exploding to tiny bits along with those who had no choice but to die a second time....
: Yeah, yeah, the descendants of the Dresdener civilians should be compensated too...a lot of them died in the bunkers as well, basement bunkers which suffocated them or burned them alive when the gases swept in...and ditto my parents (should be given reparations) who never forgot those cries 'til the day they died.... and dreamed of them, and wept whenever those desperate cries for help re-echoed in their ears....
: Oh, did you see Braveheart? OK, it had Hollywood hype, but also, it is a fact that his publicly witnessed tortured death was much more cruel, agonizing, and longer than depicted in the movie. Just for wanting freedom, he was hanged, drawn, his solar plexus cut open etc etc while still alive.
: OK, the Brits did it to him. But they had assistance by his own Scotsmen, who sold him out. And of course William Wallace is only an example of atrocities committed by the British, or shall we say English, with 'assistance' of others. So, Scotland should sue Britain for reparation. Now, the Scots in turn, attacked British troops, mutilated, burned, etc, and now Britain should sue the Scots. Also, as we know, there was an Inquisition in Europe. The Church ran a wonderful business of torturing, killing thousands of people and profited. OK, let's sue the descendants of the Inquisitors for reparations. Further, Protestants (BTW, I AM a Protestant)burned Papists on the stake,in England. Hey, are you a descendant of a Papist who was barbequed? Let's sue the Church of England for reparation.
: If you wish, you can pay me and I'll take up the case, for no more than 60 percent of the net reparation paid to you....
: regards,
: Vita
Hi Vita & All ...
I am enjoying these posts tremendously! Very provocative -
Now, since we are trying to be honest here I must take issue with something you've said, Vita.
There was not 'an' inquisition in Europe, there were several - & though popularly thought otherwise, they were not Church Inquisitions, but secular. The most infamous was that of Spain (condemned by the Church) but they were held by the princes of France & Italian states as well.
To say "The
Church ran a wonderful business of torturing, killing thousands of people and profited." is incorrect, the corruption of both Catholic princes & churchmen notwithstanding (witness the Counter Reformation). I appreciate the point you were making & the balance you sought but I must correct that myth.
Very interesting issues to ponder here ...
E