Posted by Vita on July 31, 2000 at 23:44:09:
In Reply to: Re: For all those who ponder the castingof stones posted by Elaine on July 31, 2000 at 23:06:31:
: : : : Dear Vita,
: : : : Though I have no doubts about Dresden being an absolute hell during that time, you must not forget that there were many places like it during WWII. And that the Germans could certainly hold their own when it came to bomb attacks on civilian areas. Famous examples are London and Coventry, but to bring it a little closer to my home, the city I call my home, Rotterdam, was heavily bombed on May 14 1940, which resulted in many casualties and the total destruction of our centuries old city center. My parents were children then, and living there. They witnessed it, and witnessed a lot more during the occupation that followed.
: : : : War is cruel, however this war was not started by the Allied, it was started by Germany. And the guy who started it, was put into power through a democratic election process, which shows he had quite some support for his policies. I am sure that the "little history" of the war is heartbreaking (but no more so in Germany, than in the rest of Europe), but I firmly believe that this was a war that needed to be fought. And a monstruous ideology that needed to be destroyed.
: : : : Me, I am just grateful for the sacrifices made by the Allied soldiers. I may be critical at times about American policies and attitudes, but that doesn't mean I have forgotten about that. I grew up in a free country because of those sacrifices.
: : : : Ilse
: : : Hi, Ilse!
: : : You know, the more we think on this, the more turns we find. Excellent points, Ilse ... I need to think about what you've said here, especially in regards to who started this war. I read Vita's account & yes, it illustrated very pointedly that war is cruel & causes reflection upon the great suffering by civilians in so many places.
: : : Quite honest reflections, Ilse. Thanks.
: : Now Elaine, I am in awe of your intellect constantly, but surely you aren't implying somebody other than Hitler started WWII are you? I didnt think there was ever any confusion about THAT one!
: : Well, Okay, for US directly, Japan started WWII. But everywhere it is recognized WWII started with Hitler's invasion of Poland in September of 1939. What most forget is the Soviet Union's part in that invasion, and how they rushed in to seize THEIR part of the agreed upon deal. Hitler would not have been so bold without the outright agreement of, and pact made with, the Soviet Union. True?
: : Bill R
: Hey, Bill!!! Never be in awe ... No, I did not mean what you've thought at all!!! Of course Hitler's invasion of Poland marked this dark period's bold eruption, even if its gears were underway already. I was pondering Ilse's point regarding who brought the whole affair about in the first place & the thought that the ramifications were rather unavoidable. Rest easy, Bill - I'm not looking for any great conspiracy to bypass Hitler.
: Yes, Stalin ... how many millions died under his regime? How many Russians were buried in mass graves? I wonder what would have happened in Europe if Stalin could've crushed, or even controlled Hitler, without the Allied forces. As you say, he had his piece of the pie mapped out. Either way, scary ...
: My great-uncle, a citizen of Italy at the time, was forced to serve under Mussolini. He found himself a
: 'guest' in a Russian prison camp for 3 years. He survived, barely, only because he wasn't German.
: The Russians HATED the Germans & it was most evident in these camps. The things he saw ...
: Would Hitler have been so bold without Stalin's wink? Perhaps not, though it's hard to speculate of any hesitations on the part of Hitler as his aggression, drive, & destructive hunger is incomprehensible.
you made several good points; also I would like to read more about your uncle in the prison camp.
Yes, Stalin's "wink" had a lot to do with Hitler's plans and actions. There is much about this area of history which is not talked about. Also, Hitler was a product of his era, his rise was fueled by the absolute dire straits Germany was left in after the 1st World War. Also, there is evidence that he left much in his cohorts' hands, and lived in a bubble of his own. He concentrated on his speeches, megalomaniac speeches unleashing a cloying mass hypnosis, I say mass-hypnosis because let's face it, the man had absolutely no personal charisma, his voice was a total irritant, his physique the total opposite of the atavistic, Germanic Viking leader look, thus the only explanation of how he held the masses in such thrall, is that he was simply another leg of an evil tripod which had been descended upon Europe and Russia... Hitler had no will or vision or perhaps the mental capacity to discern the dark reality his speeches were creating. Further, while Stalin has committed many well-documented personal acts of violence, and I mean personal, hands-on, violence, Hitler seems to have stood aloof, apart, almost disconnected from the evil pouring out of the likes of Mengele and the rest. My impression of Hitler, based on eye witness accounts and my research, is that he may have had a sort of schizophrenia ... that the part of him which was on stage was a mere empty puppet which the Zeitgeist of the era, used to channel itself to feed upon the weaknesses of humanity.
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