To Bill R. and Ilse

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Mohican WWWboard ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Vita on August 01, 2000 at 10:20:50:

In Reply to: Re: For all those who ponder the castingof stones- Italy and Stalin posted by Bill R on August 01, 2000 at 10:04:35:

Dear Bill
I finished reading your post, and have got to print it out to save it. In fact, I need to save this whole thread of discussion.

Dear Ilse, you said my post did not make too much sense, and I replied I will look for justification.
I do not know about you, but I LEARNED some things.

Everything you are saying, Bill, has merit and need to be addressed. I need coffee!!!!!!!!!!! I've worked until 4 am for the second day in a row, this on top of my usual burning the midnight-oil hours, and am really dizzy with the need for coffee. Food I need not considering my baby-whale or ah-hem, depending on your POV, "LoveGoddess" weight.
So i shall run and brew a pot of coffee, and be back soon!


: : Ilse

: Ilse,

: That is so true. And it often has brought trouble down the road.
: It eliminates the "greater" evil of the moment, and gives succor to the next evil that will have to be dealt with. I can't put forward a better course of action....but then each individual person is a complex swirl of emotions, thought, beliefs, motivations, desires, values and moral codes. No wonder geopolitics is all that magnified in intensity and complexity.
: I guess that is why we tend to focus on the leader or central figure...easier to disect an individual and transfer those findings on the entire nation. We tend to forget that not every leader comes to power through popular support and democratic means in the sense countries like England, France, U.S. etc think in terms of. Yes, Hitler came to power as Chancellor through elections, but he did not hold the majority of the vote, he merely held a large block of votes which outweighed the myriad other political parties taken singly. And there is much evidence that his Brownshirts did much to dissuade votes for other candidates, especially socialist ones. Once in power, he consolidated it ruthlessly. Stalin was a minor politico until he had worked his way through the byzantine heirarchy of Soviet leadership through backstabbing, toadying, unholy alliances etc.
: Once in power though, these men generate a cult of personality showing one side to the masses, and the truly darker side is shown only to their cohorts and enemies.

: There were many in this country in the 30's and 40's who believed the Soviet Union and Leninist/Marxist doctrine was the social and political answer. Our leaders (spoken jointly here of the Allied leaders) were a more cynical and aware group.
: They knew Stalin's evil and his ambitions. They used him.
: And, in fact, he used us. We sent him aid via shipping through German guns and horrible North Atlantic weather, in the form of tanks, guns, planes, food etc. He refused the landing of it, even while his country bled, until he had gotten future political concessions. And once landed, he painted over the lettering on each and every item to make it seem as if it had come from the beneficence of the Soviet regime. When it got into the hands of the soldiers and people, they had no idea it had come from outside the country in an effort to help defeat
: Germany.

: One of the reasons the Soviets were driven back so easily was due to Stalin's recent purge of all his "disloyal" officers.
: These were capable, experienced senior officers and generals who loved mother Russia. But that was their sin....they loved Russia not Stalin. So they died by the hundreds. As did anybody else thought disloyal or a competitor to Stalin.

: Hitler did the very same. He surrounded himself with generals who were toadies or willing to place their loyalty first in him, second to the country. Upon obtaining power and no longer needing the Brownshirts, he purged them mercilessly so they would never be a power to challenge him. He ordained instead the SS as the political watchdogs, the epitome of political soldier, the guadian of both himself and the Party.

: I believe it was Ilse(?) who said many in Germany hated Hitler and refused service in the Army. That is true. Most were socialists however. The socialists were the other major party in Germany during those turbulent years leading up to 1933 and 1938. Certainly in Austria there were MANY who hated the idea of unification under the Nazi flag. There were, though, many who welcomed it and lined the roads screaming their support.
: Many in German did not like the way their country was developing and the directions taken. They resisted or left. Those who resisted wound up in labor battalions, Gestapo cellars or concentration camps. There were, however, MANY who supported Hitler and absolutely loved him. The stadium at Nuremburg was not filled by holding guns to the head of the local population.
: Many, many folks proudly wore the NSDAP pin on their lapel. It is amazing how many of those folks later would state "I never was a Nazi, I was forced to join the party". Look at the newsreels of the time - roads lined be screaming and weeping men and women cheering Hitler on. Sure, that was propaganda, but often true. Early in his game Germans took pride in Hitler and his achievements. They only began to worry a tad when Hitler moved into Poland. When he succeeded there he had their support again and they thought him a bold genius. They believed he would conclude a rapid finish to the war and negotiate a treaty.
: Only by 1941 did they begin to really doubt the outcome of his agenda and begin to really become disenchanted...when things had turned against them.

: I think, in order for such things to never be repeated, there has to be the acceptance that normal people like you and I can be inflamed to support things we would never rationally accept unless stirred to do so by charismatic men or persuasive Governments feeding our baser elements and saying it is okay. WE all have those baser elements in some form. They can be fanned into flame if the right buttons are pushed. We would all like to believe it could not happen, WE would never do such things. If that were true, the Native American my not still own this continent, but he would not have been exterminated to the extent he was. If that were true, evil men would never have a political platform and public support for their ambitions.

: We have to accept our weaknesses and complicity before we can prevent recurrences. Don't we? WE have to always be on guard against those who would tell us our race is more deserving, our religion is the true religion, our group of people deserves special treatment, our leader is the only one with all the answers, our country deserves to dominate another, etc.
: Spoken as I have, we all say "Well, of course!" But look around...there is much polarity regarding religion, politics, race, wealth, moral codes right in our own country. As long as we go on thinking as individual groups of folks...we are ripe for being led down a path similar to those things we are talking about. Know what I would like to see? Instead of "Catholic charities", and "Lutheran charities" and Islamic outreach groups.....I would LOVE to see all the religions join together as believers in God and jointly work toward aiding those in need and put aside the dogma for the central thing they all believe in: we are God's children and he is pleased when we treat each other so. We need to stop accenting the differences or past grievances and start emphasising the commonalities we all share.
: Somebody is ALWAYS trying to separate us according to political party, religion, race, etc. in some way. Those who do so, do so for their own agendas and purposes. If we feed into the polarities, ANY polarity, we ensure that history repeats itself.

: Bill R

Follow Ups:

Post a Followup

Name    : 
E-Mail  : 
Subject : 
Comments: Optional Link URL: Link Title: Optional Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Mohican WWWboard ] [ FAQ ]