Posted by Elaine on August 02, 2000 at 23:08:48:
In Reply to: Re: For all those who ponder...About Charities & Polarities posted by bill r on August 02, 2000 at 21:44:08:
: : : Yup, that was my thinking. To include what I meant by polarity.
: : : In other words...as you said.
: : : There is a very great distinction between differences and polarity in my head. Differences exist. I applaud them and worship them.
: : : It's when differences become polarities that the trouble begins.
: : : I was not attacking any person, thought about my post and figured it might be construed as attacking a person or belief.
: : : The fact that I can't subscribe to something in a belief structure is no reason to attack it....until that belief structure pre-supposes superiority or an "I'm better than you" mentality.
: : : Bill R
: : Bill,
: : To clarify; I did NOT think you were attacking any person or belief in your original post. I wasn't responding to any attack. I was discussing points you raised, Bill, as honestly as I could.
: : As for belief structures; I don't think 'I'm better than you' & it's a bit unfair to assume that is my position merely because I attempted to illustrate why I disagree with you on these 2 points.
: : My understanding was that we were engaging in a discussion; nothing sinister.
: : Elaine
: And I wasn't saying there WAS anything sinister about what you said. I am sorry you took it personally, but in the back of my mind I was afraid you would. I tried to ameliorate it as best I could. However, let's take one point you DID raise. ON the one hand you say utopia (a world where everyone is tolerant and loves one another and works together in the eyes of God) is impossible - however YOUR Jesus was trying to teach us how to make that happen, and dearly wanted it to happen. So how do you reconcile THAT with your beliefs? He never mentioned a Christian church - it didnt exist - let alone a Catholic church.
: In fact, he mentions NO church at all. Through him (his behavior and example) was the way to God. At least that is my interpretation. I doubt very seriously he was speaking as a gatekeeper telling Christians left lane and others right lane.
: Bill R
Ooooooooh, Bill! At least you're talking to me!!!!!
Okay ... I didn't take it personally, Bill. That's what I keep trying to tell you. I was responding to you honestly & referenced my own beliefs.
Disclaimer: A reply, okay ... but it isn't intended for conversion purposes.
Now, Utopia ... That's right, it won't exist. How do I reconcile what Christ taught with the ways of the world? Has the world as a whole lived up to his teachings? Have individuals lived up to it? No. Is the fault with the teacher or with the follower? Think of the two greatest commandments ... Love God & love thy neighbor. If every person lived according to these two 'rules' we'd have Utopia. How many among us claim to love God but refuse to extend that love to our neighbors? My beliefs lead, they don't affirm. It's up to me to live by them as I do have free will.
Church; Are you going to make me do this, Bill? :)
He founded the Church, his kingdom on earth. Did he mention this Church? Yes, he did!
"That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
"And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."
The Christian Church existed from the moment Christ appointed the apostles. These were the first priests. "Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; etc .."
"Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, etc..."
"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ... etc."
Christiani was the original term, coined early on by non-Christians to describe the 'followers of Christ' - Catholic is a greek word meaning universal. Christ did speak of his church as universal but did not speak in Greek. It is the same apostolic church founded 2000 years ago. Through him, yes ... and he left us with a church.
No, he wasn't speaking of a gate keeper but he did, as you say, through his example show us the way.
So, Utopia & reconciliation; isn't this the ultimate challenge?
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