Posted by Champ on April 27, 1999 at 02:21:20:
In Reply to: Re: Violence and history, has anything changed? posted by Kate on April 26, 1999 at 15:52:36:
: Well, the botton line is, I gotta disagree with you on this one!
>That is your right, as it is for others....
: I agree with many things you said. Firstly, I believe the moral standards in this modern society has, as you say, deteriorated, but I believe it's because we just don't communicate with each other anymore - between kids and parents, parent with parent, etc. We've forgotten how to share our lives
>Believe it or not I agree with you...
:. Also, the power of the mighty 'buck' (and 'Pound'!) and acquiring status symbols, ie. latest expensive brand name trainers, computers, cell phones, etc. has become a major drive - and peer pressure to be seen as 'cool' is unbelieveable!! And mass media campaigns fuel this pressure.
>Yes, I have seen the effects, even within some of my own family ["keepin' up with the Jones' "]...
: I agree too, with that old platitude 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'. And, if everyone were responsible, sensible and sane, that would make sense. But the fact is - 'people *with guns* kill people'.
>Yes, and people with knives, baseball bats, cars, etc, kill with these items too...
: Unfortunately, if we are being realistic here, not everyone *is* responsible, sensible or sane. Therefore, we have to consider what the irresponsible, insensible and insane people will contemplate. And however sane or insane a person is, he's much more dangerous with a gun.
>Really? Then I MUST be very dangerous...
: To quote a Scottish Sunday paper, '...the mad, the disturbed and the dangerous can be living quietly next door until something pushes them over the edge'. Surely we have a responsibility to deny these people the opportunity to wreak their havoc.
>At the expense of the rights of others? This is one of the reasons I served in the Army, to perserve my rights...
: Yes, we have a 'right to defend ourselves'. But surely, with this kind of horrific tragedy becoming more common, we have a responsibility to protect the innocents?
>Again I agree, but this whole issue goes deeper than gun control... we're dealing with a "throw away" generation, where the parents & community are too concerned with themselves, work, etc, and "forgot" their children, left them to their own devices... I believe that if they had turned off the tv [etc] spent time in real communication [etc] you'd not see the problems that exsist in our society today..
: I understand that once, long ago in America, it was difficult to ascertain if the person you 'met on the trail' was friend or foe. There was a need for protective arms then. You've come a long way down that trail and you're all 'Americans', you should all be friends united under a common flag - what need for arms now? Protection from the maniacs? Well, don't make it easy for them to get hold of guns.
>Wouldnt it be nice if we all could get along? Unfortuantly the world is not that way, and I knew that when peace seemed at hand [the fall of the Berlin Wall & Communisim] it was ALL an illusion that wouldnt last long....
Kate , part of those "adventures" I alluded to before in e-mail was spent with a couple of the worlds largest outlaw motorcycle clubs. I have seen BOTH sides of this issue, from the law enforcement side, to the outlaw side, and do believe the old adage that when "guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Short of a police state you cant change that, and I for one will never accept a police state...
: In the aftermath of the Dunblane tragedy (when 16 4-5year old children and their teacher were gunned down and slaughtered during school assembly), the anti-gun lobby seized the opportunity to get 'extreme' gun laws pushed through the British law system, but I do believe they went too far. Even gun clubs, Olympic competitors, etc., have been severely restricted and some clubs have had to close down. More time and thought should have gone into the placing of these laws. As you say, the innocent paying for the guilty - I agree its not fair. However, the parents of the little victims will *never* see it that way! And its not fair when innocent people's lives (especially children) are snuffed out.
>Again, I agree with all the above. Neither are fair...
: Perhaps it boils down to - where do our priorites lie? Get to keep our guns - or keep our loved ones. None of us can predict whose child, mother, father, etc. will be next to die. I just wouldn't like to take the chance its (Heaven forbid!!!) yours or mine!!
: Anyway, weighing up the pro's and con's, I just can't see any other way to keep guns out of the hands of murderers. So, I have to ask myself, is my 'right to keep a gun' more important than people's right to live? I'm willing to give up my right to keep a weapon, for that.
>Remember the quote from Hitler? If it wasnt for who spoke these words, it would sound great, wouldnt it?
" This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" ~ Adolph Hitler , 1935
I have talked to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, and one thing they have said in common, "Do NOT ever give up your right to own a firearm, IF we had not given up our guns we would have at least been able to fight back against the Nazis."
I see the right to live & the right to bear arms as one and the same.
Remember, while I have seen the *ugliness* of the "outlaw" biker world, I have seen too the less than legal tactics waged upon them by law enforcement.
Who will police the police? [or the FBI, ATF, etc,etc]?
As I said before, Americans by and large have a respect for law and order, but yet also an inheirent distrust of the government [stemming from the American Revolution].
: Don't get me wrong, though, I undertand that others will have different opinions and I *totally respect* their right to have them. Quite frankly, I don't think there is one true, single answer. But I think it's up to everyone to be willing to help find *some* answer. And the sooner the better.
>Again, I agree with you, we need to find an answer, but also an answer that does not infringe upon mine or others constitutional rights [& I, like others, take ALL those rights seriously -- I even swore an oath upon entering the military to protect them with my life, and would do so even today!]... I believe that a large part of the answer is for todays parents to *reclaim* their children, spend time with them, put them number one [but dont spoil them], spend quality time with them, and bring them up to understand right from wrong. I'm not going to preach the bible, but it wouldnt hurt them either ;-)
My prayers too are with those folks who lost so much...
Mo' food for thought:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discovery that they can vote themselves money from the
public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the
candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with a result
that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by
dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been
200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence...
From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependency;
From dependency back into bondage."
Alexander Fraser Tyler (1748-1813)..."The Declne and Fall of the Athenian
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