Posted by Kate on April 27, 1999 at 22:08:43:
In Reply to: Re: Violence and history, has anything changed? posted by MMMMarcia on April 27, 1999 at 09:56:57:
Just one more word from me, guys and gals (OK maybe two),
: Champ wrote:
: Yes, and people with knives, baseball bats, cars, etc, kill with these items too...
> Yes - but guns are made specifically to harm and kill - baseball bats are not. In the time it takes to kill 15 five year olds with a baseball bat, someone is likely to have stopped a madman from perpetrating that heinous crime. Maybe one or two children would have been hurt, badly wonded, perhaps killed, but many would probably have survived. And as Petra said, people are not so likely to murder 'en masse', or indiscriminately, with a knife or baseball bat.
:really? Then I MUST be very dangerous...
> I suspect you ARE sane! :0) but yes, if you have a gun, you are more dangerous than I am. I don't have one. Just for an instance, if I did something you really objected to, like walked into your home uninvited and refused to leave, you could threaten me with your gun and scare me off (maybe). Once that gun is in your hand, you become more dangerous than the person without one.
:at the expense of the rights of others? This is one of the reasons I served in the Army, to preserve my rights.
> I'm not suggesting you give up all the *rights* you served for - only maybe that you *bend* one a little, as we *bend* some of our rules when it is necessary. May I suggest that to do so, is to be seen as *compromise*? I'm not saying make all guns illegal - I'm saying can we have a healthy compromise? What need for Uzi's and other such automatic weapons in the home? Fair comment, Marcia!
:When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
> Yup, probably true - but these 'school' shootings are not done by what I term as the 'hard core outlaw types'. Marcia put it better than I did.
:Remember the quote from Hitler? If it wasn't for who spoke these words, it would sound great, wouldn't it?
> But Hitler was mad - and was that quote taken out of context? It seemed to me that 'gun registration' was not really the point he was trying to make with that statement. He had a hidden agenda and everything he said, was said with that agenda in mind and his words designed to take people down the road he wanted to lead them. Seldom could you take his words at face value. And also, he had total control over his country. It wouldn't have mattered if every man and his dog had a gun, registered or unregistered, the price of using it without his consent, for other than his own ends, was unthinkable. I don't really think 'gun registration' meant much in those times.
: Short of a police state you can't change that, and I for one will never accept a police state.
> Does a country with gun control laws constitute a police state?
:Do not ever give up your right to own a firearm. If we had not given up our guns, we would have at least been able to fight back against the Nazi's.
> True, true! And it happened to the Scots after the 1715 Rebellion! So, (like the clever people we are!) they hid their Claymores in the thatch of their Blackhouses, should the day come when the 'King O'er the Water' would return, as his son did in '45!
But we're talking about 'war' here, with all that that means - not indiscriminate killing, such as madmen do.
:As I said before, Americans by and large have a respect for law and order, but yet also an inherent distrust of the government...
> Yeah, so do we! (Why do you think the Scots emigrated to the Colonies)!! Hard to believe that we actually feel this way, when we voted that government in, the laws are made by us, we pay the government those *huge* salaries - so why are we moaning! Yes, because they end up resembling nothing like the system we voted for!! And the discrepancy is frightening!! However, I do believe the policy of "Accountability" is coming.
: And Champ, please don't think we're picking on you. I do understand exactly what you are saying, and why you feel so strongly about it. There are valid points on both sides of this very touchy issue, and it will be most difficult to find a workable solution...but find it we MUST. And I don't think any ONE piece of legislation or any single approach will do it. Obviously, we must address many of the issues mentioned in posts above, including better parenting, higher moral standards, better communication amongst all peoples, better understanding of our disenfranchised citizens, better & more available mental health care, AND, *I* believe, some measure of gun control.
> Amen to that Marcia! We wouldn't pick on someone as defenceless as you! :0)
> Yes, I think we are all agreed, there are a lot of areas to tackle in this issue. Can I ask, are 'parenting skills' taught in American schools? They aren't in Britain!! Kids get classes in 'life' skills, ie. applying for jobs, Aids prevention, how to fill in their 'Income Support' Giro even!! They are all possible/potential parents - so why no 'parenting skills'?!? Through my University course, my work, even where I live (on a school route), I see and have worked with 'problem' kids. I'm really sorry to sound so patronising but, sometimes it's not difficult to recognise where the initial problem lies, when I meet some of the parents! Their speech content tells so much, even when little is actually said!
Communication - yes, lots more of it! And time to say 'no' more often - No, Mum and Dad can't afford Nike Air Pumps Trainers with the special MJ soles and fantastic NASA developed laces, in the new 'combat' colours! And NO! 'Everyone' does NOT have them!! Time we switched the TV off and played 'Monoply' for a change!
Better 'Care in the Community' for members of our community having mental illnesses and disabilites. We have to tackle problems such as unemployment, homelessness and the problems associated with them,ie drugs and alcohol. Problems of self-esteem, self worth - they all tie in. People who feel helpless and hopeless and stripped of their self-worth, feel powerless and having little control in their lives. How to *make* people take notice of them and their plight? Get a gun from somewhere (easy enough) and hold someone up. So, we come full circle.
You're absolutely right! We have to tackle all these issues! But they will take years to solve! Can we wait that long? So, we take them one by one, or two at a time - gun control laws while we learn to communicate.
One last thing - Remember Ghandi - and all he achieved. And he did it without guns.
OK, that's me had my five cents worth (beg pardon, 5 pence worth). Well, probably more like a quarter! Anyway, as you say, it could go on 'ad infinitum'! But, we have 'agreed to differ'. As a great man once said - 'Okily, dokily, neighbour!'.
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