The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]
The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]
7/1/2022 8:09:54 PM
On the Trail...Home | Old Mohican Board Archives | Purpose
Events | Polls | Photos | Classifieds | Downloads
Profile | Register | Members | Private Messages
Search | Posting Tips | FAQ | Web Links | Mohican Chat | Blogs
Forum Bookmarks | Unanswered Posts | Preview Topic Photos | Active Topics
Invite a Friend to the Mohican Board | Guestbook | Greeting Cards | Auction (0) | Colonial Recipe Book
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 AGAINST ALL ODDS MESSAGE BOARD - Mohicans Version
 British Colonial Warfare and Campaigns
 The Zulu War of 1879 (Opening Shots)
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
| More
Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic

Author  Topic Next Topic: The Great Indian Mutiny of 1857  

SgtMunro
Soldier of the King


Knight
USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002

Status: offline

Donating Member

Posted - November 22 2003 :  8:46:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello All,
First let me thank Sachem Rich for making this forum a reality. Good job, I really like the intro. Now, forgive me for the small detour, I will get on with the subject of this thread. This is a favorite 'Colonial Campaign' of both the Sachem and I, Lord Chelmsford's Zulu Campaign of 1879.

The Zulu War of 1879 sounded the death knell for the sovereignty of the Zulu Kingdom. Like most wars fought by the British Army, it starts with a disasterous defeat, followed by a period of uncertainty, finally building to a cresendo of victory (Sounds like the F&IW, huh?).

Some of the things I would like to discuss in this thread are the political intrigues of both Sir Henry Bartle Frere (High Commisioner of British South Africa) and Lord Chelmsford (aka Lt.Gen. Fredrick Thesinger, CINC Her Majesty's Forces, Natal Colony), which were to 'provoke' the Zulu King Cetshwayo kaMpande into a defensive war to protect the sovereignty of the Zulu people. Sir Henry and Lord Chelmsford thought that this was going to be an easy campaign, that misconception was to be shattered early on.

The 'wake-up' call to the British Army, was to occur at the base of an obscure kopje (an African mesa), called Isandhlwana, at around lunchtime on 22 January 1879...
(To be continued)


Your Most Humble Servant,

Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally."
report to moderator

susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods


Susquesus
USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003

Status: offline

 

Posted - November 23 2003 :  3:00:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
This is one area I've never investigated, what's the background? How did these British folks end up squaring off against a bunch of Zulu's anyway? A brief explanation of the chain of events that led up to this confrontation or links to sites featuring maps and/or timelines would be great. I'm interested, just don't know where the reliable sources are to be located.
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

richfed
Sachem


King 1
USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002

Status: offline

Administrator

Posted - November 23 2003 :  5:32:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit richfed's Homepage  Click to see richfed's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
"Washing of the Spears" - excellent book! Also, there's a trio of films out that are very, very good - "Shaka Zulu," "Zulu," and, "Zulu Dawn." The first is a 9 or 11 hour marathon of the rise of the Zulu Nation & first relationships with the British. The other two cover Rourkes Drift & Isandhlwana, respectively. Great stuff!

The Sarge will probably serve up more info.
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods


Susquesus
USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003

Status: offline

 

Posted - November 23 2003 :  6:02:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I think I remember "Shaka Zulu" as a TV mini-series that was played quite often in the 80's and early 90's. I would always catch a half hour here or there, I should rent it and really invest the time to watch it in one or two sittings. I remember Shaka as a rather stern, athletic looking fellow. What was the movie that came out last year, "----- Feathers", something, set in colonial africa. Was it any good? Romantic fluff? I should go check the movie forum. Wow, I'm just realizing what a blind spot I have for British colonialism in Africa. This forum is going to be very helpful and informative. It's nice to have a collection of history buff's at one's disposal
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

Two Kettles
Colonial Settler

USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 01 2002

Status: offline

 

Posted - November 23 2003 :  7:20:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Henry Cele played Shaka in "Shaka Zulu". It was an extraordinary performance in a fascinating miniseries. I really thought he'd become a major international star after it, but the only other thing I've seen him in is THE GHOST AND THE DARKNESS, and he only had a brief, if memorable role in that. "Shaka Zulu" is long, but if you're into 19th century colonial history, it's worth the time investment.

Last year's remake of FOUR FEATHERS was, IMHO, a confused and confusing mess, albeit with some good moments. It was probably hampered by a director who hated the subject matter - he was an Indian anticolonialist making a movie where the heroes were British colonial soldiers. For a better treatment of what is really a compelling story of the British colonial era, check out either the 1939 version (generally considered the best), or the 1977 made for tv adaptation (my favorite). For what it's worth, Robert Powell, who plays a doctor in "Shaka Zulu", plays John Durrance (the soldier who gets blinded) in the '77 "Four Feathers".

If you want a very well done film about why the British were in the Sudan in the first place, watch KHARTOUM with Charlton Heston and Laurence Olivier.

Two Kettles
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

SgtMunro
Soldier of the King


Knight
USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002

Status: offline

Donating Member

Posted - November 26 2003 :  8:27:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
On the subject of the causes of the Zulu war of 1879. I believe that it was initiated, for the most part, without the consent/knowledge of the Colonial Office. Once it had started, the ministries had no choice but to 'fall in line' and support the Soldiers of the Queen, on this Sir Henry Bartle Frere depended to help expand his own little fifedom. He had a willing accomplace, in Lt.Gen. Fredric Thesinger, a professional soldier who followed orders and left the politics to the politicians.

My reasons for this are that first, there was no 'telltale' increase in Regular Troops in the region beforehand. Secondly, the Disreali Government was far from jingoistic in conduct and policy, and prefered to try to settle disputes through negotiation as opposed to using military force from the begining. Thirdly, the 'henious' crimes commited on the Natal side of the Buffalo River, were already being settled by King Cetshwayo promising to hand over the three young men in question.

It was the 'loaded' ultimatum, that caused the deterioration of relations between Natal Colony and the Zulu Kingdom. What Sir Henry was demanding was no less than 'bloodless' conquest of a sovereign kingdom. Even after war was declared, King Cetshwayo prohibited any of his commanders from crossing the Buffalo River into Natal Colony. His belief was that if war was to come, he was only going to defend his kingdom and subjects, he had no interest in conquest.

These are just my thoughts based on what I have read over the years on the subject. Any other thoughts on this?


Your Most Humble Servant,

Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally."
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia

USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003

Status: offline

 

Posted - November 27 2003 :  11:06:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
As an aside, has anyone of you ever noticed that in "Zulu" when the Zulu's are attacking Roarke's Drift from the left, screen left that is, that they run past the monument dedicated to the 24th Regt. of Foot and the men who defended Roarke's Drift? I had read this long ago. and on my last viewing I looked hard for it, I really didn't need to, it is a tall white monolith.

HAWK

"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759

The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."

"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

SgtMunro
Soldier of the King


Knight
USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002

Status: offline

Donating Member

Posted - November 28 2003 :  10:25:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Hawk, there is an interesting battlefield monument present at Isandhlwana, which I had visited in 1987. What makes it interesting is that it is one of the very few colonial battlefield monuments that honors the dead soldiers of both sides. As the author and expert on the colonial wars of South Africa, Ian Knight, once said "There is no memorial service or ceremony that can honor this battlefield more, since it has already been consecrated with brave men's blood".

The reasons for the Zulu War of 1879 are, as I have stated, somewhat complex and misunderstood. What is important to remember is that the Zulu Soldiers were there to protect their homes and families, the British Regulars were there because they were ordered to be, the Colonials and Natives of Natal were there because of a percieved threat to their homes, and all of them had made sacrafices for that which they believed in. Whether those beliefs were 'hearth & home' or 'honor & regiment' are not as important as the strength shown in defending those values.


Your Most Humble Servant,

Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally."
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

Grenadier
Lost in the Wilderness

United Kingdom



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 12 2002

Status: offline

 

Posted - February 12 2005 :  08:49:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I'm a re-enactor with the 1879 Group (www.1879group.com)and we portray the 24th regiment and others during the Zulu War of 1879 in Britian (Wales and England mainly)We attend events to perform the infantry drill of the period, let off a couple of volleys with our Martini Henry Rifles and do talks on the War and the uniforms and weaponry involved. This season we hope to go into action against both the Boers and the Zulus, fingers crossed. As mentioned by Sgt Munro, the reasons for the Anglo-Zulu War are complex and would take a long time to explain but I'd avoid 'Washing of the Spears' if I were you and get some more modern material by authors such as Ian Knight.
By the way Hawkeye Joe, the movie 'Zulu' was filmed a long way away from the actual site of Rorke's Drift. I don't know what you read and saw but it's not possible mate
Glenn
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler

USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
January 12 2005

Status: offline

 

Posted - February 12 2005 :  9:48:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I am very impressed with your web site and, certainly appreciate the information you have rendered. My interest in the Battle of the Little Big Horn and The Alamo is exceeded only by my interest in the Zulu war. I was puzzled about your reference to the book "Washing of the Spears." I thought the book was great and gave an actual account of things. I,of course, defer to you. Please tell us more about why you advise that researchers seek other information.
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

Grenadier
Lost in the Wilderness

United Kingdom



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 12 2002

Status: offline

 

Posted - February 13 2005 :  07:02:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Thanks for your comments on our website. Don't get me wrong, 'The Washing of the spears' is a fantastic read but this book was published many years ago and much of it has been proven wrong. For example, 'Pip' the dog who is mentioned by Morris as having been at Rorke's Drift never existed and certain pictures are incorrectly labeled etc. Try and get hold of any work by 'Ian Knight'. He is the 'guru' on this subject and is a really nice guy. He has attented many of our events in the past. Try www.rorkesdriftvc.com for loads more information on the war. I appreciate that you like 'The Washing of the Spears', so do I, but there are many more up-to-date works around. Cheers, Glenn
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler

USA



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
January 12 2005

Status: offline

 

Posted - February 13 2005 :  9:31:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Thank you sir for the web-site with comments by Alan Critchley. I have always believed, with no real facts to support my belief, that "Zulu Dawn" was a great picture that portrayed events similar to the way they occurred. I thought Lancaster was brilliant as Col. Durnford. Was Durnford sent(ordered) to meet the Zulu left horn or did he do so under his own behest. Is it possible that Younghusband actually shook hands with his doomed troops? Is it possible that the Zulu's respected these men enough to allow this gesture? I have read innuendos regarding Shaka's abnoral, sexual preference.

My interest regarding this battle peaked so many years ago when I first saw "Zulu Dawn." I followed this interest with the reading of Washing of the Spears. I can not tell you how exciting it is to find this web site. Thank you!
report to moderator Go to Top of Page

Grenadier
Lost in the Wilderness

United Kingdom



Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 12 2002

Status: offline

 

Posted - February 14 2005 :  05:20:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
It's a pleasure, my friend. Get stuck into it with force! It's such an interesting war, full of variety, cowardice, heroism and valour!
Glenn
report to moderator Go to Top of Page
   Topic Next Topic: The Great Indian Mutiny of 1857  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
| More
Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:
 

Around The Site:
~ What's New? ~
Pathfinding | Mohican Gatherings | Mohican Musings | LOTM Script | History | Musical Musings | Storefronts on the Frontier
Off the Beaten Trail | Links
Of Special Interest:
The Eric Schweig Gallery | From the Ramparts | The Listening Room | Against All Odds | The Video Clips Index

DISCLAIMER
Tune, 40, used by permission - composed by Ron Clarke

Custom Search

The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!] © 1997-2022 - Mohican Press Go To Top Of Page
Current Mohicanland page raised in 0.48 seconds Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.07