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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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 Posted - November 18 2003 : 11:03:23 PM
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Sachem, I would have to agree with both you and Bill's evaluations of the engagement. In answer to your questions:
1) Would the Gatling Guns have helped? As I have said before, I believe it would have forced a change in tactics.
2) Was Reno the right man? I believe he would have been, if he didn't let his ego/emotions supercede mission needs.
3) What would have happened if Benteen...? Well, I think it goes back to the Reno question.
4) What if Custer kept his wings together...? Goes back to my original post concerning Custer.
5) What if Crook sent a messenger...? This was answered by Bill, when he stated that it was a lack of intellegence.
6) The other questions concerning the actions of Gibbon/Terry, well that would make a great companion string.
I think another question has to be asked, what about the M-1860 Light Cavalry Sabres in store at the post armory? A disciplined, uniform charge with the "cold steel", would have had a greater effect against the Native Forces, then a form of 'mounted skirmishing' with revolvers and carbines. What are your thoughts, guys?
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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Posted - November 20 2003 : 05:43:14 AM
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The sabres were left behind purposefully ... to "quiet" the march, it is said.
They may have made a difference, if Reno sustained the charge ... his orders were to charge the village ... he pulled up. Not criticizing that decision, necessarily. |
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Dillon1836
Deerslayer
USA
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July 17 2003
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Posted - November 20 2003 : 10:51:56 PM
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It was msot gruesome how these men died Thomas Custer have his head smashed in,castrations,scalpings,mutalations....it had to have been a horrific site,but then again that is what war is.
But yes.I still stand by my opinion it was Custer's fault.He brought many to their death because of his own arrogant,stubborn,nature. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - November 21 2003 : 10:16:41 AM
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quote:
They may have made a difference, if Reno sustained the charge
You are right, Sachem Rich. Perhaps, part of the reason for Reno's actions was the realization that his men lacked the right 'tool' for the job. I am not aware of the training program which LTC. Custer implemented with the 7th Cavalry, upon his taking command, and therefore I do not know if the use of the sabre was properly exercised.
There were two schools of thought, by ACW Vets like Custer, the first was the traditional 'General Cooke' therorist who believed in the supemacy of 'Armes Blanche'. The other school was that of Confederate Leaders like Mosby and Forrest, that being that the sabre was a useless encumbrance and it was better to have two or three revolvers per man to use from horseback. I do not know for a fact, to which school that LTC. Custer placed his faith.
My theory is that even though LTC. Custer had used cold steel tactics during his ACW years, probably due to his formal military education at West Point, he believed that what he was dealing with in the Western Theater was Light Cavalry Tactics (skirmishing and scouting). He did not think, due to past experience that the Native Forces (whom he refered to as the finest lighthorse soldiers in the world), would stand and fight a disciplined charge. What he failed to realize was that this was not a party of raiders or an armed incursion into U.S. territory, this time they were defending their homes and families and would never run from that duty.
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Dillon1836
Deerslayer
USA
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Posted - December 08 2003 : 12:35:18 AM
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| If you go see The Last samurai....Tom Cruises character pretty much puts in perspective of what kind of man General George Armstrong Custer was. |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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February 12 2004
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Posted - February 15 2004 : 7:57:28 PM
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Hi guys,
When Custer failed to support Reno's retreat, things seemed to go to the dogs from that point on. He had a chance to turn things around at that point. He sat on the hill looking down at Reno taking a beating, and did absolutely nothing! Incredible for a commander!
Was he afraid for himself? He was a brash officer in the Civil War, and this action was uncharacteristic of him. He must take complete responsibility for the loss of his command. He was not scalped, which is interesting, and leads me, as an indian, to believe that he shot himself in the temple. Indians would not touch the body of someone who dishonored themselves in such a manner in battle. They would have lost all respect for him as a warrior. If he would have gone down fighting, he would be respected. The women punched his eardrums out with sewing awls, so that he could hear in the next world, since he refused to listen to indians in this one. They also removed his head. His body is buried at West Point, but I believe that it is headless.
Ken lonewolf |
Ken Lonewolf |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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Posted - February 16 2004 : 06:57:56 AM
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Where does that "headless" information come from?
No testimony, Indian or White, supports that ... nor the suicide implication.
Facts, man, facts. |
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chasber
Lost in the Wilderness
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August 06 2002
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Posted - March 28 2004 : 12:11:12 AM
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| Custer's was the srtiking force. Whatever was said post battle does not line up at all with what was said before it. Everyone in the Montana column knew, and said, Custer was to find and hit the Indians. Everything Custer did that day was by the book. From the division of the regiment to the tactics used in the attack. He did not act as a egomanial madman. He was fighting Indians in their own country. The whole village could move faster and further in a day than the 7th could. Every member of the village was a better scout, horseman and woodsman than the average 7th soldier. Custer was able to bring his entire regiment into contact with a large, hostile, Indian village in the middle of the day on the great plains. Where else can you find an example of this? The Indians where preparing to move north. Had Custer not hit them on the 25th, they would have found Terry on the 26th. The Montana column was disorganized and seperated at that time. The infrantry being several miles away from the cavalry and the cavalry being in two parts niether of which knew where the other was. I believe Terry went with Gibbon in order to insure Gibbon did something. Gibbon had proven himself totally useless up to that point. Also, Terry was well aware of his own short comings in Indian fighting and had said that his plan was to get in close and turn Custer loose. The gatling's were only useful against massed targets and had proven themselves a hinderence in Reno's scout, so much so that he had almost abandonded them. Sorry for my rambling post I just had to get some words in. |
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lonewolf
Colonial Settler
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Posted - November 17 2004 : 11:21:24 PM
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I visited the battlefield this summer. It is very open country, lacking in much coverage from trees. It should have been an easy scouting job to locate the "enemy". Custer must take full responsibility for the loss of good cavalry. This harebrained egotist lucked out in the Civil War. He had few admirers among the officer corps. I think the War Dept. sent this idiot out West to rid themselves of him, hoping to never hear from him again, as few professional officers could stomach this butthole. Unfortunately, poor leadership will always make a name for themselves. Six-hundred men against thousands of Indians! Real smart move! The Indians had several repeating rifles, and many bows and arrows. Arrows make horrible wounds, if they fail to kill you outright. Tomahawks are brutal in close hand-to-hand fighting. It was pure carnage for the cavalry. There was no "last stand hill". The last several men threw down their weapons and were killed running away from the hill, down a ravine, begging to have their lives spared. For the past attrocities committed against Indians, there would be no prisoners. I believe that one horse was spared. It must have shown defiance and bravery.
The women then put unique cut marks on the bodies to identify the tribes involved in the fight. One group was my Cheyenne brothers. They didn't scalp Custer, which leads me to believe that he committed suicide. To my people, it is dishonor to die in battle in this manner, and it is taboo to touch the body of a coward who shoots himself.
I sprinkled tobacco to honor the fallen warriors. I felt sorry for the white dog soldiers who followed a fool into battle.
Ken Lonewolf / Shawnee
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blueotter
Colonial Settler
USA
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September 10 2004
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Posted - November 18 2004 : 03:41:58 AM
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Rich, Bill and Sarge,
I thought it would be interesting for anyone reading these posts on the Little Big Horn to know about a book that I read a couple years ago... but embarrassingly, I cannot remember the title or author. I know – it's bad form to forget — but I figured at least ONE of you with your vast libraries on the subject would have read it:
it's a Compare/Contrast of Custer and Crazy Horse, and it explains a lot about how the two men differed, and how they and their cultures viewed each other.
It shed more light on the story than battle tactics or "what ifs" usually do because it goes to the NATURE of those involved.
Not that battle tactics and what-ifs are bad -- I would never say that. I am in awe of those of you who read so thoroughly on whatever subjects drawn your attention AND are able to bring that information out often without having to go back to the books. I read voraciously on the subjects that draw my attention, but perhaps because I have so many piles and information stored in the dusty regions of my memory, I have a difficult time calling them up easily. Actually, I think they call that "Adult ADD"... that would be me!
Nonetheless, my point was to see if you knew about the book and could post the Title and Author here. Very fascinating reading!
Rose |
Rose Dupre
AKA/Órelindë Tinehtelë
AKA/Polly Gamwich
Gordon's 60th Royal Americans
Detroit French Marines |
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blueotter
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - November 18 2004 : 04:22:35 AM
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I did some homework and have discovered the title of the book I talked about previously:
Crazy Horse and Custer : The Parallel Lives of Two American Warriors
by STEPHEN E. AMBROSE
It's amazing what Google can do! |
Rose Dupre
AKA/Órelindë Tinehtelë
AKA/Polly Gamwich
Gordon's 60th Royal Americans
Detroit French Marines |
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richfed
Sachem
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Posted - November 18 2004 : 05:30:52 AM
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| Yes, I have read that ... not a bad book, but the segment on Custer & Crazy Horse "meeting" on the battlefield and staring into each other's eyes is good literature, but bad history. A bit far-fetched. |
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42ndOfficer
Pioneer
USA
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August 29 2004
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Posted - November 18 2004 : 06:04:49 AM
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Yeah,that sounds like something Allen Eckert would write.
"Bringing History To Life" |
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Candle Snuffer
Pathfinder
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November 14 2004
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Posted - November 22 2004 : 12:05:04 AM
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I too have been to the, Little Bighorn Battlefield. It's a rather somber, eerie sort of place. The dead are still restless I guess?
Since the battle people have been trying to make sense of it. They still are to this day? Speculation is a wonderful thing. The many different views that come along about what Custer did, or should have, or should not have done is endless.
I will not speculate on the battle or the man, (Custer). He lost the battle. The indians won the battle. In doing so, the indians sealed their fate. What were they to do? They came under attack and they fought back for the lives of their people, and their home.
That's history...
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - January 12 2005 : 7:52:49 PM
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This is my first opportunity to thread on this forum and, I appreciate the chance to address the poll question. Every military leader,I feel, that takes his command into battle is ultimately responsible for the outcome. Orders are issued(good ones or not so good ones), they are acted upon, (sometimes favorably and sometimes not so favorably) these actions culminate into a conclusion; win, loss, or draw.
However, prior to judging the actions of an historic figure it behooves us to analyze the cultural,societal, and governmental mores that heavily influence the thoughts, beliefs, and perspectives of the individual in question. Only then may we obtain a fair conjecture of where responsibility may lay.
Custer and every grunt, N.C.O, and officer in his command were fatally addicted to the opine that the Indians would "go on the jump" at their approach. These men harbored no apprehension regarding a pitch battle wherin they could possibly lose. They only feared that the quarry would, somehow, escape leaving them without a glorious victory. Today, in our contemporaneous wisdom, to divide your forces without knowing the exact disposition of your foe is tantamount to establishing a legacy of idiocy. In 1876, however, this tactic was standard policy when dealing with,"the greatest light calvary in the world."
In summation, Custer was out gunned and out manned by a determined enemy who refused to quit. Perhaps the prevalent mentality of that era, that mere aboriginals did not possess the civility, morals, and courage of their white counterparts is the real culprit in this tragic affair. |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
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Posted - January 21 2005 : 8:21:21 PM
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| Hello, Hello, Hello. The sound of a greeting echoing in an empty chamber. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - January 22 2005 : 10:54:18 AM
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Sorry, Joseph! As you can see, this thread does not get a lot of activity.
Unfortunately, this is a subject that I know very little about, so I don't participate.
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - January 22 2005 : 9:47:41 PM
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| Let you and I constitute a beginning. There are so many mis-conceptions regarding this battle that we may discuss. Following, politics, and religion no other subject can create such an eruption. Was Custer an Idiot, did Benteen fail him, was Reno a drunk? Why did Libbie adore this man to the day she died. Why did some troopers feel he was an "iron butt" devoid of human sensitivity while others worshipped him? More importantly, thank you for answering a pleading "echo", you are a fine person and I appreciate you. |
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richfed
Sachem
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Posted - January 23 2005 : 08:11:26 AM
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Yes she is, Wiggs!
As for Libby ... there must have been something about Georgie! |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - January 23 2005 : 09:53:55 AM
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 Gawrsh. Thanks guys.
Joseph, I see that you are a poster on Rich's other message board. Glad you are a cross-over! You will learn a lot from our resident Alamo expert and all-around-fine-young-man, Wade, on the people and events in the fall of the Alamo.
Something about Georgie? Well... handsome, dashing, brave(yeah, I know... substitute "foolish" here for a more accurate, modern description), charismatic... those would all go a long way for many women.
Now then, Joseph. Can we tweak your interest in the 18th century? |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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joseph wiggs
Colonial Settler
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Posted - January 23 2005 : 8:09:13 PM
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Yes you certainly may, I guess everyone wonders what he or she would do in a tight situation. Face the odds, retreat with dignity, or flee in dismal disgrace. That is the essence of all wars. The Big Horn, the Alamo, and the 18th Century as well. I dearly enjoy my experience on the other board although some of the posters can tend to be devious and prone to personal insults.
The important thing is that I am ready to learn and, sincerely, appreciate the opportunity! Thanks for welcoming me. |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
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Posted - January 11 2006 : 11:42:55 PM
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My vote was for "other", though it was close between that and "Hostile Indians Leaders".
The "other" that I hold most responsible were the ordinary warriors who fought so efficiently and well. The Indian leaders did their part, but the best plans are completely dependent upon the "grunts" doing what they need to do (including improvising when appropriate). |
We become what we think about. |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
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Posted - February 03 2006 : 01:17:00 AM
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Though I have no particular interest in the matter and any or all the following may be hearsay, things I have read over the years re Custer's battle have included:
GA Custer was no genius, and, I have read more than once, graduated at the very bottom of his West Point class. Not a surprise, given his stupendous idiocy at Little Big Horn. Too bad so many had to die with him.
I have read, at least once, that he was a Civil War hero because he always charged, and his charges were luckily always successful or at least not entirely fatal to him or his commands. It was of interest to me that that's all he ever did. Whatever else he failed to learn at West Point, he at least did learn "Charge!".
He did, rightly, leave the Gatling guns behind. They'd be of little use to cavalry, and wouldn't have helped in that situation anyway--they were just overrun and swarmed from every direction, while a Gatling is as unwieldy as a cannon and of use chiefly against a more concentrated enemy. Nor would have repeating rifles, the numerical disparity was just too large. I doubt that even M-16's or AK47's would have saved the day, that must have been a pretty short battle time-wise.
It's my understanding that he charged a large Sioux and Cheyenne encampment of ~14,000 downhill in command of 260 +/-, without having first secured or even scouted the high ground (crest of the hill down which he was charging) behind him.
While he was charging, he observed an inordinately large amount of fire coming from something of a tree or brush line at the base of the hill--enough fire to make him uncharacteristically abort the charge and turn his command around with the apparent intention of gaining the high ground for, I assume, a defensive position. Unfortunately, at just that time he observed a group of Indian warriers appear at the brow of the hill. His comments, I believe, were not recorded but can be imagined. [Whatever he saw, it apparently instantly spooked him. It can be assumed that very many of the Indians were mounted, else Custer would probably have taken his command at a gallop to one side or the other to try to regain Reno's or Benteen's commands.--added later]
Caught between the two hostile groups who pressed very quickly, his entire command went to ground in small groups, surrounded by their horses. They apparently didn't even have time to form up in one group.
Custer's men were all armed with single-shot rifles, albeit good ones--I've handled and dry-fired one--, while at least some of the Indians were armed with lever-action repeating rifles obtained earlier from traders.
Some of the troopers tried to surrender, but were cut down in the act. All of the troopers' bodies were mutilated except Custer's, who was recognized as a famous and respectable leader from his yellow hair. Hey, I'm just parroting what I've read here and there over the years. But if it was obviously crap, I wouldn't have bothered remembering it.
One of my fellow parishioners, a half Dakota gal who claimed to have been raised in the old Sioux (Lakota, more accurately; they never did like being called "Little Snake" in French) ways by her grandfather at a Dakota reservation gave an old rosary to our pastor. She claimed it had been taken from a trooper's body at the Custer battle site. She also claimed the battle did not take place at Little Big Horn, but at a nearby place known to Indians as "Greasy Grass". But, all the bodies were found a few days later on the hillside. I don't know how reliable anything she said was, she might have purchased the rosary at a local "antique" shop for 37 cents or some such. Or, maybe not. With her, you never really knew.
What else? The only escapees were supposedly a few Indian scouts and one trooper who was earlier assigned to stay put somewhere holding the reins of a horse (with, of course, horse attached). Saw him being interviewed on TV long, long ago, and he was indeed quite old; whether he spoke tr |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - February 03 2006 : 11:30:33 AM
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| I saw a show on one of the history channels last night on Custer and the battle. They approached it from an archaeological and forensic standpoint and came up with much the same conclusions. Apparently skirmish lines were formed, which quickly disintegrated, then they tried to cluster together, mostly by instinct. The Indians did not let the troopers use the greater range of their guns, and made use of the terrain and available cover. He was simply outnumbered and out gunned. It reminds me a lot of Isandlwana. In his "great" victories in the Civil War, he generally outnumbered the Confederates by a lot. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
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March 11 2005
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Posted - February 04 2006 : 8:51:47 PM
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Sorry, I see that [this] is awfully much later than your post, but:
One has to doubt that Gatlings, sabres of any kind, or even M-16's or AK47's would have helped Custer. If one assumes that onlyy ~20% of the Indians could fight, he was still outnumbered 12:1--and some of those Indians had repeating rifles. I've seen in other posts "bows and arrows", but I think that as late as 1876 most Indians had firearms. I have a cap-fire trade gun much older than that, and there were a lot of guns being traded for a long time.
I don't know about Reno or Benteen, other than that the former, I think, was in big trouble with his own problems besieged on, thank God, a hilltop. Some of his men, with more guts than I've ever had, were able to sneak down to a creek at the base of the hill to get water for the command and sneak back up.
Re wings, I doubt there was any time whatsoever for formation, orders, tactics, or any of that. And the troopers were not mounted, they had gone to ground and were using their horses for barricades. One horse, I've read, survived. I doubt the whole affair lasted ten minutes.
Crook, Gibbon, Terry--I don't know. Amazing to me that Crook never sent word out to the others re his battle and the size of the group he'd faced. Maybe he knew something about Indians being spread out in any possible path of a courier or even multiple couriers (happened at at least Lake George earlier), but that's just a guess. I think American Army officers of the time were not terribly astute, esp. in the west.
Hard to use a sabre when you're facing twelve guns and your chamber is empty, and there was no possibility of forming up for a mounted charge when your command is 20%--no, now it's 50%--no, now it's 70%--dead. It was apparently a complete overrun in nothing flat, with no quarter given. And if anyone had survived, it's possible he'd have soon fervently wished he hadn't.
Qasimoto
quote:
Originally posted by SgtMunro
Sachem, I would have to agree with both you and Bill's evaluations of the engagement. In answer to your questions:
1) Would the Gatling Guns have helped? As I have said before, I believe it would have forced a change in tactics.
2) Was Reno the right man? I believe he would have been, if he didn't let his ego/emotions supercede mission needs.
3) What would have happened if Benteen...? Well, I think it goes back to the Reno question.
4) What if Custer kept his wings together...? Goes back to my original post concerning Custer.
5) What if Crook sent a messenger...? This was answered by Bill, when he stated that it was a lack of intellegence.
6) The other questions concerning the actions of Gibbon/Terry, well that would make a great companion string.
I think another question has to be asked, what about the M-1860 Light Cavalry Sabres in store at the post armory? A disciplined, uniform charge with the "cold steel", would have had a greater effect against the Native Forces, then a form of 'mounted skirmishing' with revolvers and carbines. What are your thoughts, guys?
Your Most Humble Servant,
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