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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - April 14 2006 : 1:06:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
AZ
The Army's/Terry's strategy was fine; it's Custer's division of forces to no clear purpose based on no hard info that I find far too complicated to the point of his mission, even had it worked.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Custer had to believe the Indians would run and splitting the Regiment was to turn those trying to escape to the flanks.
At least one officer in RCOI stated that Custer told him they were to drive the Indians toward the Yellowstone. If he had any idea they would stay and fight then I agree with you that it made no sense to split up the regiment. Instead he could have sent a small group of the best mounted individuals to a high point and discover the size of the village and form the strategy based upon that information.
Good, getting two birds with one stone. Strangely enough, while reading the biography of Mackenzie, Bad Hand, I learned that (which I hadn't known or if known, not digested) Mackenzie always attacked with a unified force and did not split his forces and was, per the author, "advised to do so at least once." Unfortunately, the author does not list a source for the information in that paragraph.
WILD, you are right re: Powder River fight...I was thinking of the March campaign prior to LBH.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 14 2006 : 4:27:35 PM
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"...my choice of name reflects the time and place I'm most interested in, the Ohio frontier during and immediately after the Revolution. Lewis Wetzel was the white border warrior sans peur, though most definitely not sans reproche."
Wetzel, in your studies of that era, have you ever run into the Virgin family or a man by the name of Van Swearingen?
At my site, there is a section entitled "Letters" which has a couple of things dealing with the Ohio River. I have access to more, simply haven't bothered being snowed under by Indian Wars got-to-get-dones. Here is my site's URL:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~familyinformation/
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 14 2006 : 4:50:10 PM
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Was Bad Hand Robinson's book? Where he thinks M looked like Michael J. Fox and said so? I'd love to find my notes on that, I recall some odd things in there. Still, MacKenzie was clearly a superb leader and his decline quite sad.
People have made such a fetish of showing how Custer was ever so military, and that a flank attack was really an accepted practice, that they never inquire of themselves or the situation if it were too complicated and energy wasteful for the need. It still kills me, reading idiotic announcments about the discovery of this,er, manuever in tones of dramatic, scientific insight sufficiently condescending to drive me to laughter. Like who'd ever think the U.S. Army knew such recondite military manuever as a flank attack?
Nobody ever asks if the Wa****a and LBH were actually overplanned to no point. At the Wa****a, did it work? Despite the cleverness and all, most of the village escaped and hardly any men were killed or captured for all the self congratulation. It's now conceded Custer lied about the gender breakdown of the dead. The LBH speaks for itself.
It kills me about Sklenar as well. Five lodges, fifty people, we'll attack from eleven directions after a feint ........ Or, we can stay together and roll over it like a steam train disallowing them any reaction time whatsoever. Benteen, exhaust your mounts to the south in a mission two Rees could do in half the time, Reno, you and three companies and the scouts attack whatever is I can't see behind these bluffs, follow me the rest of you...... Remember those firing positions we were going to practice later with the ....anybody?...anyone?..gun! Good boy, Martini!......with the guns we carry on the side of our.......anyone?...anyone?....Horse, right! Good, Mr. Thompson..... Anyway, it's later and you need to pay attention now...... |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on April 14 2006 5:26:38 PM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 15 2006 : 02:10:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Was Bad Hand Robinson's book? Where he thinks M looked like Michael J. Fox and said so? I'd love to find my notes on that, I recall some odd things in there. Still, MacKenzie was clearly a superb leader and his decline quite sad.
Hope this doesn't end up like one of Wigg's posts...You are correct, this is Robinson's book. Things mesh fairly well to me but I would love to hear your opinion...not that I have any choice :) Regarding Michael Fox, you must of been reading something beyond what I read. No mention whatsoever, or comparison, to Michael J. Fox-who I think is a good actor despite any boo's from the peanut gallery!
quote:
People have made such a fetish of showing how Custer was ever so military, and that a flank attack was really an accepted practice, that they never inquire of themselves or the situation if it were too complicated and energy wasteful for the need. It still kills me, reading idiotic announcments about the discovery of this,er, manuever in tones of dramatic, scientific insight sufficiently condescending to drive me to laughter. Like who'd ever think the U.S. Army knew such recondite military manuever as a flank attack?
Once you put that in English, I can respond fully-sorry, I couldn't resist...As I said in the original post, I was surprised that Mackenzie attacked with his full force and minimal, if any, division. Looking over the battles in the book, the most diversion I see is sending the scouts out after the Indian's horse herd...sound familiar? Most attacks by cavalry leaders with sufficient forces in other portions of the West did involve split forces....as the book said, Mackenzie won more than he lost so maybe he had the right plan?
quote:
Nobody ever asks if the Wa****a and LBH were actually overplanned to no point. At the Wa****a, did it work? Despite the cleverness and all, most of the village escaped and hardly any men were killed or captured for all the self congratulation. It's now conceded Custer lied about the gender breakdown of the dead. The LBH speaks for itself.
You may have a point, however, don't say it to loudly as the modern-day Native Americans (as Indians are now known) will state that it was the third most horrifying massacre of innocent persons in the American West...(and I am loving the responses which may come from my unfeeling/unapologetic statement).
quote:
It kills me about Sklenar as well. Five lodges, fifty people, we'll attack from eleven directions after a feint ........ Or, we can stay together and roll over it like a steam train disallowing them any reaction time whatsoever. Benteen, exhaust your mounts to the south in a mission two Rees could do in half the time, Reno, you and three companies and the scouts attack whatever is I can't see behind these bluffs, follow me the rest of you...... Remember those firing positions we were going to practice later with the ....anybody?...anyone?..gun! Good boy, Martini!......with the guns we carry on the side of our.......anyone?...anyone?....Horse, right! Good, Mr. Thompson..... Anyway, it's later and you need to pay attention now......
Errr, you into writing fiction? I think you had a point to make which you halfway made and then, what the hell?
Best of wishes,
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on April 15 2006 02:14:01 AM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 15 2006 : 02:40:35 AM
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And, before you get Wildish, I will have you know that I was listening to "London Calling" while typing, so in essence, I really don't care what anyone says!
Just goes to show the power of good rock and roll !
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 15 2006 : 4:32:05 PM
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Markland,
1. I cannot find notes for Bad Hand, but in A Good Year to Die: The Great Sioux War, on page 257, my notes say Robinson left the impression with me he had a crush on MacKenzie ("His most outstanding feature, however, was his light gray eyes - sometimes soft, sometimes piercing, always dominating....."). This is exactly the sort of stuff that Custerphiles love to dwell upon with their object of adoration and I find so embarrassing.
But I'm pretty sure I read Bad Hand and didn't like it, probably for the reason just stated, but the bit about Michael J. Fox might be in the Sioux War. I just found it a jolting thing to read, and I remember it. But it isn't in my notes. Like Buford, I think, M was rather devoid of bombast and viewed the Army as a job, get things done quick and effective and no melodrama.
2. This is in reference to Nightengale types who discovered a flank attack was an accepted military move, and that all those who called Custer crazy (who? where?) are just ignorant of military history.... Straw Dog Central.
3. It may be, because most of the dead were old men, women, and children. Which is my point, actually, the detailed four sided attack didn't seem to prevent either excape or lend itself to clear result. Rather, it just instituted a mess of a fight that allowed most warriors to get away.
4. Just saying the 7th wasn't precisely trained well, and imagining Custer as Ben Stein comes natural. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on April 15 2006 5:16:46 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 17 2006 : 11:40:50 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by AZ Ranger
AZ
The Army's/Terry's strategy was fine; it's Custer's division of forces to no clear purpose based on no hard info that I find far too complicated to the point of his mission, even had it worked.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Custer had to believe the Indians would run and splitting the Regiment was to turn those trying to escape to the flanks.
At least one officer in RCOI stated that Custer told him they were to drive the Indians toward the Yellowstone. If he had any idea they would stay and fight then I agree with you that it made no sense to split up the regiment. Instead he could have sent a small group of the best mounted individuals to a high point and discover the size of the village and form the strategy based upon that information.
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Good, getting two birds with one stone. Strangely enough, while reading the biography of Mackenzie, Bad Hand, I learned that (which I hadn't known or if known, not digested) Mackenzie always attacked with a unified force and did not split his forces and was, per the author, "advised to do so at least once." Unfortunately, the author does not list a source for the information in that paragraph.
WILD, you are right re: Powder River fight...I was thinking of the March campaign prior to LBH.
Best of wishes,
Billy
I guess it was Terry whom first started splitting the force. Again I believe it was the Army's overwhelming fear of the Indians fleeing.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 18 2006 : 12:03:31 AM
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People have made such a fetish of showing how Custer was ever so military, and that a flank attack was really an accepted practice, that they never inquire of themselves or the situation if it were too complicated and energy wasteful for the need. It still kills me, reading idiotic announcments about the discovery of this,er, manuever in tones of dramatic, scientific insight sufficiently condescending to drive me to laughter. Like who'd ever think the U.S. Army knew such recondite military manuever as a flank attack?
DC I don't see that Custer planned a flank attack from anything I have read. First from what survivors say he didn't know where there was a village when he split the Regiment. So he couldn't be planning a flanking maneuver. If he thought there might be a village or villages and the Indians would run then spreading the regiment to three battalions to drive them could make sense. Flanking Reno to make sure the Indians didn't escape to either side is not the same thing as a flanking attack on village location that has not be verified. Unfortunately for Custer he didn't need to worry about the Indians running. If Reno had charged into the village (he would have be slaughtered) then Custer might have be coming in from behind and from the side and Benteen would have come from behind also and there would be no flanking at all.
In reality if the whole Regiment had stayed together and our assessment of the trained skills of the troopers is correct then Custer would have lead them into the village( I can't imagine him stooping like Reno did if he had the whole Regiment) and possibly the whole Regiment would have been wiped out.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 18 2006 : 11:00:52 AM
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We don't know what Custer thought or planned.
But Nightengale and affiliates announced in WWmagazine et al that this was his plan, and that people who thought it wasn't just weren't read up on military manuevers, and it was accepted and had been used before. Well, duh.
But because the manuever existed, didn't mean that was his plan, or what he was doing. We don't know. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2006 : 04:25:52 AM
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But because the manuever existed, didn't mean that was his plan,
The village had no flank. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2006 : 11:47:21 AM
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But because the manuever existed, didn't mean that was his plan,
The village had no flank. Good point wILD |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2006 : 2:25:41 PM
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"DC I don't see that Custer planned a flank attack from anything I have read. First from what survivors say he didn't know where there was a village when he split the Regiment. So he couldn't be planning a flanking maneuver. If he thought there might be a village or villages and the Indians would run then spreading the regiment to three battalions to drive them could make sense. "
AZ, I appropriated your last thought in the above and started a thread over at LBHA, Villages-actually, I had not even read that sentence as the first one got me going down the same path you went and I left before finishing.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2006 : 2:30:27 PM
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"I guess it was Terry whom first started splitting the force. Again I believe it was the Army's overwhelming fear of the Indians fleeing. "
Actually, I believe it was Harney in the battle of Blue Water Creek, Nebraska in what, 1858? who first did it on the northern plains and for all I know, the entire plains. I don't believe that prior to that they had enough men to do a whole lot of division. What mounted regiments were out there? First and Second Dragoons, the First Cavalry and the Mounted Rifles? Plus a couple or three infantry regiments. That to cover the entire area from the Mexican border northwards and the Mississippi westward to the Pacific.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 20 2006 : 09:08:28 AM
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So he couldn't be planning a flanking maneuver.
Custer did in fact perform a flanking maneuver in that he presented his own strung out flank to the village.
Again I believe it was the Army's overwhelming fear of the Indians fleeing.
This scattering business is greatly overstated.Where are 6000 civies going to scatter to?They were tied to the rivers so their only options were down the Big Horn towards the Yellowstone or back to the Rosebud all at about 5 miles a day. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 21 2006 : 5:48:20 PM
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Again I believe it was the Army's overwhelming fear of the Indians fleeing.
This scattering business is greatly overstated.Where are 6000 civies going to scatter to?They were tied to the rivers so their only options were down the Big Horn towards the Yellowstone or back to the Rosebud all at about 5 miles a day.
Wild they were gone before Terry got there. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 26 2006 : 11:00:12 PM
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So he couldn't be planning a flanking maneuver.Custer did in fact perform a flanking maneuver in that he presented his own strung out flank to the village.
Or was the rear of the formation?
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 26 2006 : 11:03:26 PM
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| How much training would have made the 7th profcient with the firearms? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 10:40:34 AM
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If we have no information about training other than the small amount of ammunition issued per month can we assume there was a lack of training?
Also before leaving the post did the troopers shoot 60 rounds? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 07:48:50 AM
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I came across a book entitled Horse Soldiers 1760 to 1940.It has a section covereing the period of the Sioux wars and discusses arms and equipment of the troopers.Check with your local boiok shop AZ it might be what you are looking for.
Gone kinda quiet here of late will have to try to stirr something up. |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 4:55:51 PM
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| Maybe I'm missing something. There's never been any secret to Custer's tactics and strategy at LBH. His two top commanders survived to tell the story. The only mystery regarding the event is why on earth some folks keep talking about what Custer might have done to win. Maybe an air strike. |
Bob Bostwick |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 12:30:54 AM
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| Heavyrunner what was Custer's tactics after MTC? That is question to me. The answer may that no one will ever know. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2006 : 4:32:48 PM
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AZ,
I don't think there is any mystery. He'd already done this at the Wa$hita: Hit 'em from more than one side and make 'em scatter with pistols, carbines and charging horses. Obviously, he found out there were more than 150 lodges.
Tactics after MTC? Pretty pointless, the way I see it. He was a dead man and so were all in his command, scattered across those 80, or so, acres. Honestly, when I first saw the battlefield, it looked to me as if there was neither cohesion nor organization, just a mad scramble. I'm not military, but a breakdown of command means no formal tactical approach, finally coming to every man for himself.
Two hundred-plus men dying in a half hour...that's 50 dead every seven and a half minutes... I'm sure we'd agree that Custer didn't tell his men: "Lads, here's what we'll do when we're surrounded, without hope and dying like flies..."
I may come across as a bit flippant...apologies if I do. I think a more interesting question, since we're speculating, is what might have happened had Custer waited for Gibbon...creating a pitched battle on the 26th or 27th?
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Bob Bostwick |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 9:30:25 PM
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| Heavyrunner I am inclined to agree with you. when I visited LSH it looked there had been a horse race to the top and the fastest horses usually own by officers won. It appeared they died in their position to get out of there. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2006 : 07:41:11 AM
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I agree, after all the years. When you reduce the LSH area by 20% spuriouos markers, alter the view by putting the 27 or so markers in the ravine of your choice, move the Custers and their supporting cast to where descriptions have them around the monument, fifty feet away, thin out the other markers where photos show the stakes to have been south towards Keogh and west to the river, it looks thready and far from a coherent last stand. More like shot in movement or in line. It looks, in fact, not at all incompatable with them reaching the top of the hill and being greeted with rifle fire from an unexpected bunch of Indians. And yes, the officers would have won the race.
There is zero evidence for a last stand, or at least as conceived by the romantics. It really looks like a bounce off a wall and disintegration.
But there's nothing in the way of proof possible.
Also? We should start new threads and topics. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 19 2006 : 5:13:20 PM
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From the centre of the village to approx the centre of Custer's position scales approx 1 mile.That distance gave Custer 5 mins warning of the coming attack.
The position and uniformity of the markers show no evidence of any units using this time to break away to the Nort East.The only movement in response to the Indian attack seems to be Custer's dash to LSH with at least 2 of his units simply frozen to the ground awaiting orders.
And yes, the officers would have won the race.
It's their job. |
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Springfield Carbine
