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 Battle of the Little Bighorn - 1876
 Sioux War of 1876-1877
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Author Previous Topic: atlas of sioux wars Topic Next Topic: MILITARY RECORDS  

DLL
Recruit

USA
Status: offline

Posted - May 28 2004 :  09:59:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know where to find rostes of those soldiers involved in the Fetterman and Custer battles?

DL Latimer

frankboddn
Major


USA
Status: offline

Posted - July 10 2004 :  12:55:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DL, I was at Ft. Phil Kearny two weeks ago for the Bozeman Trail/Ft. Phil Kearny Days, and while in their book store I bought a book entitled "Bozeman Trail Scrapbook" The books and photos of Elsa Spear. On page 9 it lists "Fetterman Massacre's Death Toll" and lists "the names as listed by Sgt.-Major David Kestetter, 18th Infantry, who was stationed at Ft. Phil Kearny and who made out the original detail at the time." It lists the Roster by company or troop, as well as the two citizens and commissioned officers. Really good book with photos I've never seen before. It was originally "published by the Ft. Phil Kearny/Bozeman Trail Association. It is published by the Fammily of Elsa Spear Byron, 1993, with previously unpublished photos." Anyone interested in buying it, I think you can only buy it thorugh the association.
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General


Status: offline

Posted - July 10 2004 :  12:09:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are several lists of the Fetterman Massacre dead available on the web. Just do a search at Google or something, and you should be able to pull one up with little trouble.

R. Larsen

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BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - October 15 2004 :  5:44:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I was at the National Archives Wednesday night, originally to test the concept of photographing displays from a microfilm viewer with a digital camera, when I had the brainstorm that the KC NARA repository has jurisdiction over Federal documents in North Dakota and I wondered if they might have the Post Returns for Ft. Abraham Lincoln. I asked and, after delving through their stacks, they found it for me!

The first question I had was whether there was any references to target practice in the aforementioned returns. The answer is an unfortunate "No". That is not to say that there was not any target practice but that only it was not referenced in the Post Returns. I think that it will have to be pursued through the textual records of the Quartermaster Corps or perhaps the Department of Dakota to find the data in order to answer the question once and for all.

While browsing through the film, something did strike me and I want to run it by you all. One of the "myths" of the LBH and (James Earl Jones voice here) THE LAST STAND is that the 7th was defeated because a large percentage of their troopers were recruits. So, to get a feel for how true that was, I started looking in detail at the Post Returns for when the 7th was part of the garrison force. I arbitrarily started looking at the returns beginning in July, 1875 through May, 1875. The data, while incomplete (I did not have the companies residing at Fort Totten nor the South), is illuminating. A quick note about methodology. I looked at the section of the Post Return dealing with the 7th’s enlisted men labeled “Gains” with the subheadings showing the source of the gain, i.e., “From Recruiting Depot, Reenlistment, Transfer, etc.Here it is without commercial interruption.


Since the site does not support tables, I have put a rough HTML file of this same post along with monthly data at:

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~familyinformation/Custer/recruits.html

When the regiment left for General Terry’s campaign, they had 348 men listed as accounted for. I did not, due to time constraints, list out how many were on detached duty, sick, etc. I will photograph that the next time I am over there and upload it.

For those who don't wish to go to the page and look at the monthly totals, here is a quick summary. For the entire calendar year preceding LBH, the companies stationed at Ft.Abraham Lincoln received 136 men, of which 4 men reenlisted. That leaves the remainder, 132, as the number of recruits who joined. The bulk of these recruits, 94, came into the regiment during October, 1875. So, in essence, 38% of the regiment and likely more can be accurately said to have had less than 1 year of service...again, with the caveat that some of these men may have had prior military backgrounds, and that of the 132, 42 (12% of total accounted for) had three months or less service and 90 (26% of total accounted for) had 7-8 months experience.

Does it mean anything? I am still mulling over that one but my first thought is that the 90 men with 7-8 months experience would not classify as raw recruits under any criteria. Perhaps neophytes to combat, but still, they would know how to ride, the drills, and be able to load and fire a carbine (how accurately is another story).

Sorry about being disjointed, been a long day at the "salt mines".


Notes:
Source: Post Returns of Ft. Abraham Lincoln
National Archives & Records Administration
M617 roll 628

(1) Enlisted directly into regiment
(2) 1 man from recruit depot, 4 men reenlisted
* No data available for that company
- Men were sent to the regiment for disbursement without defining which companies got the men. At the time this happened, companies A, C, D, F, & I were with the regiment.

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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General


Status: offline

Posted - October 15 2004 :  8:08:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Using the records in Hammer I count about 33 enlisted men with Custer who had less than a year's military service --- including Civil War and postwar duties in other regiments. About 17%. I don't think any had less than 6 months in the regiment. Most of the group had about nine.

The numbers were higher in Reno's battalion, I believe, though I can't quickly give any numbers. He had some of the more raw recruits, anyway. Theodore Goldin had enlisted that April, and one of the men (David Summers) had enlisted just a month before he was killed in the valley.

Most of the really green, of course, were put on detached service at depots or Ft. Lincoln before the battle.

R. Larsen


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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - August 23 2006 :  09:44:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I was at the National Archives Wednesday night, originally to test the concept of photographing displays from a microfilm viewer with a digital camera, when I had the brainstorm that the KC NARA repository has jurisdiction over Federal documents in North Dakota and I wondered if they might have the Post Returns for Ft. Abraham Lincoln. I asked and, after delving through their stacks, they found it for me!

The first question I had was whether there was any references to target practice in the aforementioned returns. The answer is an unfortunate "No". That is not to say that there was not any target practice but that only it was not referenced in the Post Returns. I think that it will have to be pursued through the textual records of the Quartermaster Corps or perhaps the Department of Dakota to find the data in order to answer the question once and for all.

While browsing through the film, something did strike me and I want to run it by you all. One of the "myths" of the LBH and (James Earl Jones voice here) THE LAST STAND is that the 7th was defeated because a large percentage of their troopers were recruits. So, to get a feel for how true that was, I started looking in detail at the Post Returns for when the 7th was part of the garrison force. I arbitrarily started looking at the returns beginning in July, 1875 through May, 1875. The data, while incomplete (I did not have the companies residing at Fort Totten nor the South), is illuminating. A quick note about methodology. I looked at the section of the Post Return dealing with the 7th’s enlisted men labeled “Gains” with the subheadings showing the source of the gain, i.e., “From Recruiting Depot, Reenlistment, Transfer, etc.Here it is without commercial interruption.


Since the site does not support tables, I have put a rough HTML file of this same post along with monthly data at:

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~familyinformation/Custer/recruits.html

When the regiment left for General Terry’s campaign, they had 348 men listed as accounted for. I did not, due to time constraints, list out how many were on detached duty, sick, etc. I will photograph that the next time I am over there and upload it.

For those who don't wish to go to the page and look at the monthly totals, here is a quick summary. For the entire calendar year preceding LBH, the companies stationed at Ft.Abraham Lincoln received 136 men, of which 4 men reenlisted. That leaves the remainder, 132, as the number of recruits who joined. The bulk of these recruits, 94, came into the regiment during October, 1875. So, in essence, 38% of the regiment and likely more can be accurately said to have had less than 1 year of service...again, with the caveat that some of these men may have had prior military backgrounds, and that of the 132, 42 (12% of total accounted for) had three months or less service and 90 (26% of total accounted for) had 7-8 months experience.

Does it mean anything? I am still mulling over that one but my first thought is that the 90 men with 7-8 months experience would not classify as raw recruits under any criteria. Perhaps neophytes to combat, but still, they would know how to ride, the drills, and be able to load and fire a carbine (how accurately is another story).

Sorry about being disjointed, been a long day at the "salt mines".


Notes:
Source: Post Returns of Ft. Abraham Lincoln
National Archives & Records Administration
M617 roll 628

(1) Enlisted directly into regiment
(2) 1 man from recruit depot, 4 men reenlisted
* No data available for that company
- Men were sent to the regiment for disbursement without defining which companies got the men. At the time this happened, companies A, C, D, F, & I were with the regiment.



Billy- I think this brings up two points

1 "Perhaps neophytes to combat" certainly this could explain the bunching and rapid fire of Reno's troopers

2 The experience of combat against Indians requiring the whole regiment to engage at the same time. One of Vern Humphrey's points he made over and over was that Custer failed to engage all 12 companies at the same time. In past engagements were 3-5 Companies sufficient to engage in an Indian action if the Regiment was in close proximity?

AZ Ranger

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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