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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 18 2005 : 7:00:18 PM
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Read this too in rainy nights...
b]"I found my fellow captives had preceded me. There were Aikens, Martin, and Stewart, stripped entirely naked and bound as follows: High posts had been driven in the ground about three feet apart. Standing between them, their arms had been drawn up as far as they could reach, the right hand tied to the stake on the right side and the left hand to the stake opposite. Their feet, likewise, were tied to the posts near the ground.
Martin and Stewart were strung up side by side. Directly in front of them, and within ten feet, was Aikens, in the same situation. A short time sufficed to divest me of my scanty Indian apparel and place me by the side of the latter. Thus we stood, or rather hung, Aikens and myself facing Stewart and Martin.
Then a long line of warriors, of whom there were probably two hundred, moved forward slowly silently, and in single file, with the leader of the war party at their head. Their pace was half walk, half shuffle, a spasmodic, nervous motion, like the artificial motion of figures in a puppet show. Each carried in one hand his knife or tomahawk, in the other a flint stone, three inches or more in length and fashioned into the shape of a sharp pointed arrow.
The head of the procession...first approached Stewart and Martin. As it passed, two of the youngest warriors broke from the line, seized them by the hair, and scaped them, then resumed their places and moved on. This...did not necessarily destroy life. Blood flowed from them in profusion, running down over their faces and trickling from their long beards. Up to this time there had been entire silence, except a yell from the two young men when in the act of scalping, but now the whole party halted a half-minute and, slapping their hands upon their mouths, united in an energetic war whoop. Then in silence, the circuitous march was continued. When they reached Stewart and Martin, the second time, the sharp flint arrowheads were brought into use. Each man, as he passed, with a wild screech, would brandish his tomahawk in their faces an instant, and then draw the sharp point of the stone across their bodies. By the time the line had passed, our poor suffering companions presented an awful spectacle.
How many times they circled round, halting to sound the war whoop, and going through the same demoniac exercise, I cannot tell. They persisted in the hellish work until every inch of the bodies of the unhappy men was hacked and covered with clotted blood.
In the progress of their torture there occurred an intermission of some quarter of an hour. During this period, some threw themselves on the ground and lighted their pipes, others collected in little groups. All, however, laughed and shouted, pointing their fingers at the prisoners in derision, as if taunting them as cowards. The prisoners bore themselves differently. Stewart uttered not a word, but his sobs and groans were such as only the most intense pain and agony can wring from the human heart. The pitiful criews and prayers of Martin were unceasing. Constantly he was exclaiming: "Oh! God have mercy on me!" "Oh, Father in heaven, pity me!" "Oh! Lord Jesus, come and put me out of pain!"
I hung down my head and closed my eyes to shut out the heart-sickening scene before me. But this poor comfort was not vouchsafed me. They would grasp myself as well as Aikens by the hair, drawing our heads back violently, compelling us, however unwillingly, to stare directly at the agonized and writhing sufferers.
I pondered how I might reach death, yet avoid torture. The more I mused on the atrocities I had seen - the more the bleeding, ghastly forms of Stewart and Martin rose before me, as they did constantly - the more bitter became my feelings towards their murderers.
Another account (from a woman who was eventually rescued):
The chief declared that I should die for having caused the loss of his pipe. An untamed horse was brought, and they told me I would be tied on it and used as a target for arrows.
Helpless, and almost dying with terror, I sank on a rock. Anxiously they awaited the signal. They were all armed with pistols, bows, and spears. Some stopped and raised blazing firebrands to frighten the pawing beast that was to bear me to death.
In what I felt was almost my final breath, I prayed for my salvation and the foregiveness of my enemies. Then I remembered a purse of money in my pocket. Knowing that it would decay with my body in the wilderness, I drew it out and divided it among them, though my hands were growing powerless and my sight failing. I gave them one hundred and twenty dollars in notes, telling them its value as I did so. To my astonishment a change came over their faces. They laid their weapons on the ground, seemingly pleased. They requested me to explain the worth of each note by holding up my fingers. Eagerly I tried to obey, perceiving the hope their milder manner held out. But my cold hands fell powerless by my side. I sank to the ground unconscious. When I returned to my senses I was still on the ground where I had fallen. But preparations for the deadly scene were gone, and the savages slumbered on the ground near me by the faint firelight. Hundreds of sleeping forms lay in groups around me. There was no opportunity to escape.
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I prefere Wiggs with his double way... |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 18 2005 : 8:40:57 PM
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Both of these versions of Man's Inhumanity to Man exemplify the rancor and misunderstanding that created the horror of that era. They stand as a sad commentary regarding the depressing realization that the same rancor and misunderstanding continues to exist today. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on February 18 2005 8:46:10 PM |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 06:46:26 AM
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| It's true, Joseph also if the Wa****a references are full of historical errors, for exemple, reporting losses that are enflated: there were 35 losses... |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 12:04:53 PM
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Lorenzo,
I know the point you are making,I have no problem with it.
But generally people like to look at both sides of a arguement.
This article I found and posted,was for everyone who might not have come across it before.
I am on this board as a learner,way behind most of the guys who post,and view there comments with interest.
You seem to have a problem with this,every time someone posts a view that is not your own,you retaliate with a post like above.
Stories like these are ten a penny from the frontier at that time,ON BOTH SIDES ! |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 1:12:47 PM
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Hunkpapa, If is wrong to disagree, well I should tell always "yes".
Well, You gave a reference, a website that is indian sided that talk of genocide and make a great deal of mistakes (I have wrote to the owner long time ago giving him some points that were not correct but he never answered back and have not corrected them, oh...what a surprise - mistakes are easily prooved by J. Greene). You gave this web address and then said very emphatically and retorically: keep this for rainy nights. I have too not problems with your view. And with whom disagree with my opinion. BUt I Simply answer with mine against the one of another. This is dialogue. Normally called. After, I really think that nobody can't tell I am a "dictator" as I was always the first to let the discussion just because I am here not to win a battle, but trying to tell honestly what I think about the arguments here developed. So I never fell in that kind of: yes is true no it is'nt yes is true no it is'nt yes is true no it is'nt.... I, finally Posted that stories, just to shows the other side of the medal that in your post and in the article was not considered. I don't think and don't thought it was a problem at all. And so seems to consider also Joseph, with which I had very civil discussions and toward which I have a great consideration, also if we clearly disagree upon the Indian argument. That's all. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 6:45:01 PM
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Lorenzo,
the keep it for a rainy day,was for the amount of reading in it !
I havn't even read it yet,and if you have read it before thats fine.
I have no axe to grind either way,meaning White or Red.
Perhaps you would like this article[below]
http://www.innotts.co.uk/kmcken/derudio.html
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wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 7:21:14 PM
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| Hunk, thank you for the interesting webb. It's contributions like yours and Lorenzo's that make this forum what it is. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on February 19 2005 7:24:16 PM |
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Frank Spencer
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2005 : 3:32:41 PM
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Poll - Would Frank Spencer have handled the Little Big Horn better than Custer?
A. YES
B. NO |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2005 : 9:00:37 PM
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| B. No, but not for the lack of trying |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 26 2005 : 9:01:18 PM
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| Where is Frank Spencer? |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 02 2005 : 3:14:32 PM
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I found this in a letter from Gen. Sherman to Gen. Sheridan yesterday and thought it interesting as Sherman has always been considered the poster child for advocacy of extermination of the Plains Indians. The letter was dated October 15, 1868. I will be able to publish the entire letter as well as other associated Wa****a data this week.
"As to “extermination” it is for the Indians themselves to determine. We don’t want to exterminate or even to fight them. At best it is an inglorious war, not apt to add much to our fame or personal comfort; and for our soldiers, to whom we owe our first thoughts, it is all danger and extreme labor, without a single compensating advantage. To accuse us of inaugurating or wishing such a war, is to accuse us of a want of common sense, and of that regard for order and peace which has ever characterized our regular army. The settlement of Kansas and Colorado, the injustice and frands heretofore practiced on the Indians as charged, are not of our making; and I know the present war did not result from any acts of ours."
Everyone have a safe and glorious 4th of July,
Billy |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 02 2005 : 8:45:21 PM
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I have seen this letter on a prior occasion and am convinced of its authenticity. Undoubtedly Sherman wrote it and, his reasons for doing so were, in all probability, a genuine reflection of his thoughts at the time of its creation. However, I would question the motivation of such a letter. For example, a parallel statement written in a similar vein and authored by General Custer comes to mind. A letter in which he inferred that the Indians choice to fight back was an honorable decision to which he did not blame them for doing so.
He is then, of course, subsequently ordered to challenge a rather large village of Indian men, women, and children. Had he been successful, hundreds of Indians would have had an opportunity to die for their way of life as he felt they should have done; as he would have done. In other words, Custer's noble sentiments did not mean a hill of beans when it came down to the desires of the United States. Nor does Sherman's accolades of innocent protests.
Does Sherman's line, "As to extermination it is for the Indians themselves to determine", have an ominous ring to it? Let me proffer a possible interpretation of such a line. If the Indians are so foolish as to attempt to live a lifestyle other than we,(his betters) dictate than the horrific results of such a decision falls squarely upon their obstinate necks. Ironically, it is a similar philosophy (telling others over the globe how to live) that helped us to garner the sobriquet "Ugly American."
This persistence in telling others how to live may have also led to the current action of thousands of Mexicans standing in line to purchase racially discriminating postage stamps in a National protest against America's audacity to claim that "others" are participating in incorrect and insensitive, racial behavior.
There is a common psychological phenomenon that promotes us to blame our adversaries for forcing us to kill them. We project our likes, dislikes, and desires upon a group whose needs are quite different than ours; foreign and incomprehensible. Consequently, when the other group,understandably, refuses to acquiesce to our "demands" we presume to believe that "they" are silly, stupid, obstinate, irrational, bizarre, pests, and annoying stumbling blocks in the path of progress, who are generally despicable for not comprehending what is so obvious to "us." In other words, they got what they deserved. "They" could have prevented war had they just saw the light!
Finally, the following Sherman statement "and I know that the present war did not result from any acts of ours" defies belief. My only comment to this bizarre statement is that from time immemorial, it has always taken "two to Tango."
Again B.J., thank you for your always informative posts and, a fantastic 4th of July to you also.
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Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 02 2005 9:20:31 PM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2005 : 11:04:18 AM
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Joe, real short.
quote:
Finally, the following Sherman statement "and I know that the present war did not result from any acts of ours" defies belief. My only comment to this bizarre statement is that from time immemorial, it has always taken "two to Tango."
He was referring to the specifically to the Army.
The context in which Sherman wrote the letter was in releasing Sheridan to pursue and defeat hostile Indians. Note the date.
The reason I posted the excerpt is simply because every mother's son and daughter wishes to take Sherman's 1866 remarks after learning of the Fetterman fight and use it as official government policy. Here is what Sherman telegraphed to the Army commmander, U.S. Grant on 12/28/1866:
"St. Louis, December 28, 1866.
GENERAL : Just arrived in time to attend the funeral of my adjutant general, Sawyer. I have given general instructions to General Cooke about the Sioux. I do not yet understand how the massacre of Colonel Fetterman's party could have been so complete. We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children. Nothing less will reach the root of this case.
W. T. SHERMAN,
Lieutenant General.
U. S. GRANT.
Official copy: E. S. PARKER, Colonel and A.D.C."
Anyway, got to go and do some more psuedo-research for myself.
Later,
Billy |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2005 : 10:35:21 PM
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| Billy, I do not hesitate to admit that I am as guilty of biased opinion as the next man. General Sherman was a participant in a bloody war that created havoc in the minds and hearts of many people. That he was not one of my favorite historical personages does nothing to mitigate his accomplishments and failures. What I do appreciate is a balanced and equitable approach towards each of the participants in this battle. Your submission of Sherman's letter exemplifies such a commitment. Please continue to submit such relevant and informative issues. |
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GENOCIDE ON THE GREAT PLAINS
