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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 06 2009 : 11:27:55 AM
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One thing that always struck me about this village, wasn't just the size of it, nor whether or not one attacks it as 'infrastructure' as in the modern sense shoulda, woulda, coulda done some kind of moral damaging harm upon the inhabitants. BUT, instead its relationship to the battle, and how others percieve it to have been situated on July 25, 1876.
Some generalizations, just for starters, because I am choosing to do this from memory rather than book-plate tectonics. And while we could, one supposes try to attain some kind of relative accuracy of information regarding this village, I think it best to begin in this realm, rather than that of solid state dynamics where compound perspectives would be so differing to view that were one to try that, it may produce that which would be undesidered in the first state.
Anyway... Those generalizations.... From memory....
1) There were about 7 village's which composed a larger 'village setting'.
2) The most southern village was the Hunkpapa village, which lay somewhere in the vicinity of the modern day 'Garry Owen Store & Museum.
3) The most northern part of the 'larger village setting' location has been debated for years (see below), but most still say that it was the 'Cheyenne' camp.
4) The length of the village was placed at anywhere from 3 to 4 miles in length, beginning from the Hunkpapa encampment on the southern end.
5) The Indians camped in circles, each tribe setting up it's own camp circle, with an opening to the east.
6) Now for the clincher. The width of these villages was not over 1/2 mile wide for the larger tribes. And much less, sometimes mere yards for the smaller bands.
7) There is ample evidence to suggest that the indians did not place their camps 'side by side' but allowed some considerable 'breathing space' between when camped in the configuration they were on the 25th of June, 1876, and as they had been on the Waschita (thumb my nose, used an old indian variation)
8) Finally, There was a clear separation between what one could have called the 'upper camp' from the 'lower camp'. The 'upper camp' being those loosely grouped with the Hunkpapa, the 'lower' being those loosely grouped with the Cheyenne. This demarcation line appeared no less than at MTF, and would have split the two larger camps in half at that point. This area being largely vacant of any tepees for some distance on either side of the 'so called' demarcation line and extending from the ford area back SW.
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Edited by - Benteen on December 06 2009 11:40:57 AM
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2009 : 5:54:07 PM
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OUTSTANDING! there are so many false perspectives about the size of the village which are incorrect to fill a ware house. As the American public and the military of that era desperately sought a acceptable reason for the fatalistic outcome. after all, "heathen" aboriginals were incapable of defeating the U.S. that is why shortly after the battle the amount of warriors grew from a number that was reasonable to over 9,000 warriors according Benteen
Horses were a great commodity for the native American and often represented an Indians' social stature in the community. As such, men often had more than one mount,they may have dozens!
For the sake of argument, let's say that the average Indian family possessed five horses, the village would have a heard in the number of 45,000 mounts. It would have taken hundreds of men to guard such a host and, not the few Indian boys that are mentioned as herders.
In addition, research has confirmed that the village was in the process of moving north when Custer arrived. It continued to move north and west on the 25Th., after destroying Custer's command thus, the actual length of the village was, understandably, mis-construed by Gibbon and Terry upon their arrival.
There is much more I would like to add but, I will save off from doing so for the moment. I want to re-discover my sources for my thoughts for future confirmation. Great post!!! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2009 : 08:08:48 AM
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I like to view it as multiple camps composing the "Big Village". I have read that the size may be less than 2 miles in length with accounts of viewing the actual location as including the movements from previous days to indicate a greater size. The horse herd should be an indicator of the numbers of persons there but to what magnitude is still speculation.
Lakota Noon has a treatise on the village and it size. The densities at different levels are reviewed. The length of the village even if less than previously is sufficient to hold to many Indians willing to fight.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2009 : 9:24:42 PM
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Be careful Benteen, intelligent posts like the one above will get you into hot water with some of the"experts" on this forum. After all, the essential criteria for proving that Custer was an idiot is that he foolishly attacked a village as large as Chicago with just zillions and zillions of crazy Indians who couldn't wait to kick butt.
To describe the village as a military tactic capable of being achieved will bring down the ire of every expert who can testify to the reality that the village was 12 miles Long, 8 miles wide and, had enough warriors to invade Afghanistan.
I say these things because I know you honor the truth. I just want you to thread lightly with reality because any information that goes against the grain of the "experts" could be explosive. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2009 : 10:03:29 PM
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Joe,
Two words 'explosive bolts' explains it all. These ingenious pyrotechical devices divide the spent stages from the craft. Long after those who claim expertise in a field where there is none, have fallen, the other shall soar onward to explore where no man has gone before. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 17 2009 : 09:47:24 AM
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Joe I haven't seen any posters here that think Custer was an idiot in a long time. I certainly don't think Custer was an idiot and I don't think I have read DC stating that. Could you provide names of posters who think Custer was an idiot where they posted such. That is other than one of your personifications.
We do know there were enough Indians to kill 5 companies plus HQ in less than a day. Apparently you have not read the Lakota Noon treatise on the village and it size. 1.5 miles would sufficient to whole almost any estimate made of the total numbers.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 17 2009 : 6:04:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Joe,
Two words 'explosive bolts' explains it all. These ingenious pyrotechical devices divide the spent stages from the craft. Long after those who claim expertise in a field where there is none, have fallen, the other shall soar onward to explore where no man has gone before.
"Where no man has gone before." That statement best describes the importance of unbridled research that culminates in the discovery of a vast reservoir of knowledge. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2009 : 08:07:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Joe,
Two words 'explosive bolts' explains it all. These ingenious pyrotechical devices divide the spent stages from the craft. Long after those who claim expertise in a field where there is none, have fallen, the other shall soar onward to explore where no man has gone before.
"Where no man has gone before." That statement best describes the importance of unbridled research that culminates in the discovery of a vast reservoir of knowledge.
Hope you guys realize that Star Trek is fiction. Maybe it is the source for the new research or maybe it was the Twilight Zone version of the battle.
Still waiting for Joe's unbridled research on some poster especially in recent history calling Custer an idiot.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2009 : 09:07:26 AM
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AZ,
There are many things that were invented for Star Wars and Star Trek that could not have been imagined to have came into being, yet they have. To say that any fiction is 'worthless' and deem it irrelevent the way you have, does say alot about your own worthlessness to this cause. Whether you like it or not, it is the human imagination that drives us forwards into the future, without it, we stagnate into the insufferable void where YOU ARE NOW.
And for your information, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is the title of a book currently under publication by NASA with a subtitle of "A History of Apollo Lunar Exploration Missions". You sir refer to Star Trek, which says "Where no one has gone before". Your fiction NOT our reality.
As for your constant badgering of Joe to produce this or that, why dont you go search for it yourself. It's there, you know it is. It's categorized by "phobes" and "philes", and and one time or another even chided in derision by one as a plaything for DC - your choice, which one do you think it would have been - Custerphobe or Custerphile? And don't push my buttons or I will post it, and you know I will, and I will not be limited to this board alone, and will give proper credit to where and when it is due.
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2009 : 8:40:07 PM
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WOW, what he said!!!!!!    |
Edited by - joe wiggs on December 18 2009 8:41:43 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 19 2009 : 5:50:38 PM
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OK here is what you asked for, a search.
Here are the first two:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_no_man_has_gone_before
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061027/
So Benteen lets demonstrate my point all along with the dynamic duo.
Here's your post.
And for your information, And for your information, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is the title of a book currently under publication by NASA with a subtitle of "A History of Apollo Lunar Exploration Missions". You sir refer to Star Trek, which says "Where no one has gone before". Your fiction NOT our reality.
is the title of a book currently under publication by NASA with a subtitle of "A History of Apollo Lunar Exploration Missions". You sir refer to Star Trek, which says "Where no one has gone before". Your fiction NOT our reality.
So is it you error or are you intentionally lying? You can't even make your point without introducing the same type of error you do about the RCOI.
Provide evidence that Star Trek is not "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or admit you erred again or made a false statement. I provided two sites in a search as you requested that make it clear to me that you are wrong.
Truth or fiction?
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 19 2009 6:12:34 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 19 2009 : 8:57:15 PM
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Please az, enough is truly enough! Benteen produced an extremely poignant statement regarding the search for truth. A search unencumbered by preconceived ideas and, open to all with out fear of retribution by the insolent. A place were many fear to thread because of individuals like yourself.
Why? Because of your obvious and silly remark attempting to equate Benteen's powerful message to the "Star Trek" movies/episodes. What I don't understand is you inability to recognize that Benteen and I are the only persons still posting with you. Your numerous posts are indicative of a need to be here, else why do you go on and on and on?
Keep up and there may come a time when Benteen will decide to go elsewhere. If he does, I'm with him. then what would you do. It's okay that we will never agree. In fact, the day I find myself agreeing with you I will seek psychological help. However, our disagreements could be productive instead of counter-productive if you would simple ease up a tad and act like a gentleman. Think about it. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2009 : 07:53:13 AM
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Az, this is why I have refused to reply to you. Your constant inability to see beyond the semantics of the words at the mere suggestion that I could have formulated a lie. That by this very act, to which you everso would like to enshrine my name within, would so please you beyond any compare that were I to give you that awful truth now, you sir would not believe me.
Pity that I should try. This witful soul that journeys within Valhalla's entombed walls should find so little comfort in the satisfaction that mere words bring. That none to honor dare come near for fear that death itself would none spare. And though together on a fleeting ship does all depart daily to that far shore, ever are the fools that enter that barge of death and not think twice about their fate. For they truely shall go where no one has gone before and lived to tell the tale. For other's whose imaginations were not clouded by their reason, whose spirit not ensnared by dark passions, they were able to go where no man has gone before, to journey beyond their own finite universe and touch the face of god.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2009 : 10:27:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Az, this is why I have refused to reply to you. Your constant inability to see beyond the semantics of the words at the mere suggestion that I could have formulated a lie. That by this very act, to which you everso would like to enshrine my name within, would so please you beyond any compare that were I to give you that awful truth now, you sir would not believe me.
Pity that I should try. This witful soul that journeys within Valhalla's entombed walls should find so little comfort in the satisfaction that mere words bring. That none to honor dare come near for fear that death itself would none spare. And though together on a fleeting ship does all depart daily to that far shore, ever are the fools that enter that barge of death and not think twice about their fate. For they truely shall go where no one has gone before and lived to tell the tale. For other's whose imaginations were not clouded by their reason, whose spirit not ensnared by dark passions, they were able to go where no man has gone before, to journey beyond their own finite universe and touch the face of god.
I find it incredulous that you want to take me to task for semantics. It was you that created the difference and then used it as a "Benteen Fact" to make a point.
And for your information,[sounds like you're about to put forth a "Benteen Fact"] "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is the title of a book currently under publication by NASA with a subtitle of "A History of Apollo Lunar Exploration Missions". You sir refer to Star Trek, [here comes another "Benteen Fact"] which says "Where no one has gone before". That is the introduced "Benteen Fact" where he changed the word to make a point Your fiction NOT our reality. [Your fact]"Where no one has gone before" which you introduced is the fiction.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 20 2009 10:48:22 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2009 : 12:19:20 PM
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"Gosh Pa, look at all the red!
"Well son, we best be going before he starts under lining in red too!"
"Oh snap pa, we is too late." |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2009 : 7:33:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Az,
Pity that I should try. This witful soul that journeys within Valhalla's entombed walls should find so little comfort in the satisfaction that mere words bring. That none to honor dare come near for fear that death itself would none spare. And though together on a fleeting ship does all depart daily to that far shore, ever are the fools that enter that barge of death and not think twice about their fate. For they truely shall go where no one has gone before and lived to tell the tale. For other's whose imaginations were not clouded by their reason, whose spirit not ensnared by dark passions, they were able to go where no man has gone before, to journey beyond their own finite universe and touch the face of god.
Benteen, this passage is wonderful and inspiring. The spirit not being ensnared and touching the face of god. Wonderful my friend, absolutely wonderful! Thanks for sharing it. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2009 : 8:25:07 PM
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| Thanks Joe, and guess who missed the meaning entirely, and wouldn't know the difference if a flea jumped out of the rug and bit him. Such is the "honor" who preaches honor where there is none. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 21 2009 : 07:36:59 AM
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Your point about Star Trek was made up for what purpose?
You sir refer to Star Trek, which says "Where no one has gone before". Your fiction NOT our reality.
You inserted the word one in place of man and then put it forth as a fact. You then used your created fact to make a false statement.
This is exactly the complaint about your factual statements such as Benteen lying about when he thought Custer died. In reality he testified to events in what he believed occurred in the past and also his current opinion. No lying was involved.
Instead of admitting you erred in both cases you drag this out with long posts. Your diatribes are smoke screens to hide the errors. A technique used by Joe also.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on December 21 2009 07:40:31 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2011 : 5:14:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Your point about Star Trek was made up for what purpose?
You sir refer to Star Trek, which says "Where no one has gone before". Your fiction NOT our reality.
You inserted the word one in place of man and then put it forth as a fact. You then used your created fact to make a false statement.
This is exactly the complaint about your factual statements such as Benteen lying about when he thought Custer died. In reality he testified to events in what he believed occurred in the past and also his current opinion. No lying was involved.
Instead of admitting you erred in both cases you drag this out with long posts. Your diatribes are smoke screens to hide the errors. A technique used by Joe also.
A classic case of the kettle calling the pot black. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2011 : 09:59:56 AM
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Joe you haven't improved have you. You post something as a quote and then insert with the quote.
"Your diatribes are smoke screens to hide the errors. A technique used by Joe also."
Did you learn that in creative report writing? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2011 : 6:33:37 PM
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| Without too much difficulty, anyone could figure out my message;you did! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2011 : 08:16:40 AM
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| I now understand why you consider an Indian account as testimony. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2011 : 12:21:27 PM
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| In all sincerity, how is it you could not understand it before? I've been saying the same thing over and over. Could it be that you finally read what I actually wrote? |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 07 2013 : 7:56:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0160042534
I finally got it! Az has gone to, and remains where no "Man" has gone before: Outer space! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 09 2014 : 1:26:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0160042534
I finally got it! Az has gone to, and remains where no "Man" has gone before: Outer space!
That's because you an Benteen have driven everyone else off and I don't waste much time with those some might call "fools". |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Deductive reasoning ~ The Village
