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Lurking Huron7273
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November 27 2002
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 Posted - May 05 2004 : 02:00:17 AM
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OK,
Finally had some time to scroll through some of the archived posts and read Richfed's summary of Ros' recollections of what is best described as the First Theatrical Version of "Last of the Mohicans".
Here's a link to that thread:
http://www.mohicanpress.com/wwwboard/messages/3641.html
There were some efforts at that time made by folks on this message board to get hold of this version of the movie - ? what happened? Total disinterest on the part of the studio? Would they even be amenable to having a private party rent it out for a viewing? Because, if some copies of this version of the movie made their way to Ventura, California, I'm sure there were lots more copies made.
Did you ever even get a reply back? In some of the older posts Richfed mentions an ability to contact Michael Mann himself - any luck there with trying to contact Michael Mann?
There are all sorts of Expanded versions of movies coming out these days, even "Conan the Barbarian" came out with an Expanded version (one of my favorite movies! - can you tell?- although they still didn't put back in the legendary scene where Arnold cuts off the head of a woman gladiator).
What about packaging the movie as a Silver Anniversery edition so that all THREE VERSIONS are included? (it's entirely possible, with DVD technology - without having to separately reprint every single scene of each version onto the disc)
It's just terrible that this version of the movie has not seen the light of day since 1992. It was STRIKINGLY different from the Second Theatrical version (now on VHS tape and Region 4 DVD). It's practically a different movie. By comparison, I see the differences between the Director's Cut version and the VHS/Second Theatrical version as being relatively minor.
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GP
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 02:10:15 AM
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Aagh, forgot to log in again. That was me above.
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Conan, what is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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GP
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 02:31:05 AM
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Here's a re-link to this article that had been posted in one of those earlier archived threads:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/thelastofthemohicansrkempley_a0a32a.htm
The Washington Post review perfectly summarizes the main features that distinguish the First Theatrical version from the Second Theatrical version - strong stylistic resemblance to Miami Vice, and this quote:
"The four of them look into the camera with such a burning yearning, it's amazing the lens didn't melt all over the sets"
Yes, I remember scenes where both Hawkeye and Cora, and Uncas and Alice exchange these looks (although Uncas and Alice's spots were fairly short). The First theatrical version, was, without a doubt, a far more romantic movie, upping the intensity for the Hawkeye and Cora relationship as well as providing for a more subtle one for Uncas and Alice.
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Conan, what is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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richfed
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 05:46:24 AM
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Our efforts resulted in the DVD edition ... we had contact with both Forward Pass & 20th Century Fox, a great outpouring of support/request from "the masses," and a very interested/enthusiastic Michael Mann.
Don't know about this "original" version you speak of. Ros saw a screening before release. Sounds mythical, sort of ... |
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GP
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 4:48:10 PM
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Richfed,
I came to this message board mainly to get information about this temendous discrepancy between my memory of what I had seen in the theater in 1992 and what everybody was claiming was the "Original Theatrical Version" of LOTM on the VHS tape and the Region 4 DVD that I got. To my mind, this alleged "Original Theatrical Version" more closely resembled the Director's Cut more than anything else.
In your two posts to my questions, you have only offered condescendingly smug replies suggesting that I was probably hallucinating. Thank you, I already realized beforehand that was a possiblity, but you are not being helpful.
I have come to the conclusion that since you yourself NEVER saw the movie in its original run in the theaters (yes, it is very useful to learn these things on your own message board, reading those old posts), you basically have no clue what was or was not shown in 1992. So, please don't muddy the picture any more with your comments. You basically weren't there, didn't do that, and so have no first hand information to offer on this subject.
This is YOUR website, that link to what Ros saw in 1992 was posted by you (assuming that Rich and Richfed are the same), and I end up learning that Ros had also seen a different movie in 1992 only through an anonymous poster. Couldn't YOU have tried to be helpful by letting out this little secret?
I intend to research this subject further. I do think that I am now on the right track, thanks to anonymous poster Lurking Huron 901 telling me about Ros. Should I share any future information that I discover with everybody else on this message board? Or, should I just keep them as tidy little secrets also?
I posted that link to the old Washington Post review of the movie for a reason. The person who linked to it in that old post said they thought that the critic had also seen a different movie, just like Ros.
And so this different movie did exist. It did have the basic elements that I remembered it to have - the Uncas-Alice love story, and the Miami Vice stylishness. Just about everything that I have read so far about what Ros saw and what the Washington Post critic saw jives with what I saw in 1992.
How this version of the movie ended up in that theater in Ventura, I have no clue, but I am going to try to find out. Did it ever occur to you Richfed, that, with your connections to Michael Mann, that YOU could try to find out also?
But then again, I kind of wonder what sort of connections you really do have. Because if you are claiming credit for having gotten the Director's Cut released, I would say, NOT.
In reading the old posts, I don't see where ANYBODY said anything about wanting to make a new version of LOTM where dialogue from Hawkeye and Cora got CUT OUT!!. I don't see anything resembling a clamor to see Duncan marching out to fight with his men at the fort. I don't see anything about wanting to delete the Clannad song from the movie, or giving Chingachgok a longer speech at the end.
Because that's what ended up in the Director's Cut, and a large percentage of LOTM fans to this day are pissed off and think that the Director's Cut is inferior to the Second Theatrical Version.
So, I don't think that you either can or should, or ought to even be WANTING to claim credit for the Director's Cut. Michael Mann clearly made this movie without any regard to what folks on this message board wanted.
What I read over and over again on this message board is that the number one thing that people seem to want is to see more of the Uncas-Alice love story.
All Michael Mann or Fox has to do to fulfill that wish is to release the First Theatrical Version. Nobody has to even spend any time re-editing the movie.
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Conan, what is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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Diane B.
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 7:46:33 PM
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TROLL ALERT!
HEY, DOC MARY - Don't you have some patients that would be interested in some Troll Butter?!
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Rattlesnake Woman
"The earth does not belong to us; we belong to the earth." - Chief Seattle
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Bookworm
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 8:23:09 PM
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| Oh dear. I never thought I'd say this about LOTM, but . . . . IT'S ONLY A MOVIE. Sounds like Ros saw a test screening that Michael Mann was not satisfied with, for whatever reason. |
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GP
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 10:59:03 PM
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Diane B.,
That's Mr. Troll to you!
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Conan, what is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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richfed
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Posted - May 06 2004 : 06:19:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Richfed,
I came to this message board mainly to get information about this temendous discrepancy between my memory of what I had seen in the theater in 1992 and what everybody was claiming was the "Original Theatrical Version" of LOTM on the VHS tape and the Region 4 DVD that I got. To my mind, this alleged "Original Theatrical Version" more closely resembled the Director's Cut more than anything else.
In your two posts to my questions, you have only offered condescendingly smug replies suggesting that I was probably hallucinating. Thank you, I already realized beforehand that was a possiblity, but you are not being helpful.
I have come to the conclusion that since you yourself NEVER saw the movie in its original run in the theaters (yes, it is very useful to learn these things on your own message board, reading those old posts), you basically have no clue what was or was not shown in 1992. So, please don't muddy the picture any more with your comments. You basically weren't there, didn't do that, and so have no first hand information to offer on this subject.
This is YOUR website, that link to what Ros saw in 1992 was posted by you (assuming that Rich and Richfed are the same), and I end up learning that Ros had also seen a different movie in 1992 only through an anonymous poster. Couldn't YOU have tried to be helpful by letting out this little secret?
I intend to research this subject further. I do think that I am now on the right track, thanks to anonymous poster Lurking Huron 901 telling me about Ros. Should I share any future information that I discover with everybody else on this message board? Or, should I just keep them as tidy little secrets also?
I posted that link to the old Washington Post review of the movie for a reason. The person who linked to it in that old post said they thought that the critic had also seen a different movie, just like Ros.
And so this different movie did exist. It did have the basic elements that I remembered it to have - the Uncas-Alice love story, and the Miami Vice stylishness. Just about everything that I have read so far about what Ros saw and what the Washington Post critic saw jives with what I saw in 1992.
How this version of the movie ended up in that theater in Ventura, I have no clue, but I am going to try to find out. Did it ever occur to you Richfed, that, with your connections to Michael Mann, that YOU could try to find out also?
But then again, I kind of wonder what sort of connections you really do have. Because if you are claiming credit for having gotten the Director's Cut released, I would say, NOT.
In reading the old posts, I don't see where ANYBODY said anything about wanting to make a new version of LOTM where dialogue from Hawkeye and Cora got CUT OUT!!. I don't see anything resembling a clamor to see Duncan marching out to fight with his men at the fort. I don't see anything about wanting to delete the Clannad song from the movie, or giving Chingachgok a longer speech at the end.
Because that's what ended up in the Director's Cut, and a large percentage of LOTM fans to this day are pissed off and think that the Director's Cut is inferior to the Second Theatrical Version.
So, I don't think that you either can or should, or ought to even be WANTING to claim credit for the Director's Cut. Michael Mann clearly made this movie without any regard to what folks on this message board wanted.
What I read over and over again on this message board is that the number one thing that people seem to want is to see more of the Uncas-Alice love story.
All Michael Mann or Fox has to do to fulfill that wish is to release the First Theatrical Version. Nobody has to even spend any time re-editing the movie.
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Lurking Huron3087
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Posted - May 07 2004 : 02:18:09 AM
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| Hm..do you think there is a possibility of having LOTM re-released again..this time with the alice/uncas scenes which were snapped out..haha..wishful thinking..but one can always hope yeah |
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GP
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Posted - May 09 2004 : 3:50:55 PM
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Richfed,
I don't have anything to be smug and condenscending about. Confused and wanting to find the truth is more like it. This website seemed like it would be a great place to find the truth, and it is very disconcerting to find that, yes, the truth is buried in here, but the person running the website doesn't want to deal with it anymore.
It was just purely by accident that I saw that version of LOTM in 1992. For the last 12 years, strangely enough, I had been under the impression that that version of the movie was the only Theatrical Version which everybody else had watched.
Life is very very busy for me. I don't have cable TV and don't watch much TV at all, and so after 1992 I never saw this movie again until 2000, when I bought the Director's Cut DVD. I was really, really surprised and upset by how different the movie looked, but attributed all the differences to the fact that this was a Director's Cut version. I even posted a comment on Amazon.com at the time, dated March 23, 2000, which lists basically the same sort of scenes that I thought were missing or changed.
Lurking Huron3087:
The missing Uncas-Alice parts in the version that I saw were only a few brief shots of them interacting at the fort, plus (I think) the brief part of them interacting at the end of the betrayal and ambush by Magua's war party, which is described in the movie script posted here. Those shots of Uncas and Alice at the fort were just background type shots, mixed in with the main scenes, which were for the most part more scenes of Hawkeye, Cora, and Munro interacting at the fort. And so because these other scenes were cut out, it would be tough to get these brief shots of Uncas and Alice back in and have any sort of context that would make sense.
That last closer-up shot of their bodies together at the bottom of the cliff could be put back in without much difficulty though.
Overall, though, it would be best if the whole First Theatrical version were just re-released. It's such a different, more romantic movie that it's worth seeing it in that version despite the other problems with it.
I think Michael Mann clearly edited that First Version in the romantic, melodramatic, and hip late 80's style of his Miami Vice days. Then, for whatever reason, he decided to get away from that style. The Director's Cut goes even more in that direction, away from the Miami Vice stylishness, with the removal of all those anachronistic snappy one-liners from Hawkeye.
People who have seen only the Second Theatrical version might think the First version a bit odd and dated in its style, especially if you have any memory at all of what Miami Vice looked like. I didn't even like Miami Vice, and I don't think I was ever able to sit through an entire show without changing channels, it was just so melodramatic and stylized.
But, in pruning this melodrama off from the First Theatrical Version, Michael Mann unfortunately also removed a lot of the romance from the movie.
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Conan, what is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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richfed
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Posted - May 09 2004 : 8:11:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Richfed,
I don't have anything to be smug and condescending about. Confused and wanting to find the truth is more like it. This website seemed like it would be a great place to find the truth, and it is very disconcerting to find that, yes, the truth is buried in here, but the person running the website doesn't want to deal with it anymore.
It was just purely by accident that I saw that version of LOTM in 1992. For the last 12 years, strangely enough, I had been under the impression that that version of the movie was the only Theatrical Version which everybody else had watched.
Life is very very busy for me. I don't have cable TV and don't watch much TV at all, and so after 1992 I never saw this movie again until 2000, when I bought the Director's Cut DVD. I was really, really surprised and upset by how different the movie looked, but attributed all the differences to the fact that this was a Director's Cut version. I even posted a comment on Amazon.com at the time, dated March 23, 2000, which lists basically the same sort of scenes that I thought were missing or changed.
You assume a great deal, MR. GP. You have assumed that you know the inner dealings of our Director's Cut Drives, of which it is obvious that you do not. Why do you even make statements like that? You have no idea what kind of contact we have had with Michael Mann. Just to clarify one point, the Drives' content [the second of which was initiated at Michael Mann's request] are not even remotely reflected on this web site. Now you are assuming that I don't care. As far as I know, we have never conversed before, yet you come in here demanding that I - or someone - have the answers to your question. You assume, too, that my life is not quite as busy as yours and that I am therefore somehow obligated to do your bidding when you say so.
Smug & condescending as it may be, all I know regarding this are but two things ... Ros had seen a preview version which was then edited. It was NOT the "original" theatrical version. Secondly, most people who have seen the film in its initial run do not say that the version on the VHS is any different.
Personally, I couldn't tell you one way or the other. Apparently, at least from the lack of response to your query, neither can anyone else. I do know that in the version we show at the Gatherings, General Webb's line about the French making love to their faces is slightly different. So, who knows? Anything is possible.
Sorry my answers don't suit you, but short of making up stories, it's the best I can do.
By all means, continue your quest - here if you'd like - just leave out the snide remarks. You might find things might take a turn for the better. |
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GP
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 12:57:07 AM
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Thank you, Richfed.
You are doing a fantastic job of making me want to hurry on to the next item on my "to-do" list of hobby projects. With each of your posts, my desire to pursue this issue drops exponentially. Currently, that desire is close to zero, and so rest assured that your next reply will go unanswered.
I did go to the local library and look up a bunch of old articles from the LA Times about LOTM. No smoking guns, so to speak, but lots of articles, interviews, and interesting insights into the early days of this movie. I think I'll just keep them to myself - you can look them up yourself too if you want, at latimes.com, for a small fee.
Yes, you are right, I have no clue about all that went on behind "THE DRIVE" to get the Director's Cut made. But what I said in that other post still stands, and you have not provided an answer. Did lots of people ask that dialogue from Hawkeye and Cora get CUT from the movie? Did lots of people ask that the Clannad song be CUT? Did lots of people ask that the main additions to the movie be added footage of Duncan fighting with his men at the fort, and more of Chingachgook's speech at the end of the movie?
Sorry, I was being very presumptuous, but commmon sense told me that it wasn't likely that was the case. But I could be wrong. You could easily prove me wrong by digging up the files of "THE DRIVE" and posting all the demands for the above from fans of LOTM.
And that would really prove that there was a direct connection between "THE DRIVE" and the final product - what actually ended up in the Director's Cut. That would REALLY prove that yes, this Rosemary's Baby of a movie, the Director's Cut, was really the child of "THE DRIVE".
Anyway, it's all moot, because you just finally, and definitively answered another question that had ben bugging me.
Almost all fan sites for movies or whatever, have this nearly insatiable desire to learn about and see everything there is about the origins of a movie, even if the origins are somewhat crude and quite different from the final product. A lot of that stuff gets incorporated into "Special Edition" DVDs these days. The "Conan the Barbarian" Special Edition DVD has this terrific section about how the movie was made, including bits about the original rough draft of the script written by Oliver Stone. Really different. Star Trek fans all know about the pilot show of this TV series, which was never widely shown, and was shot in black and white, and Jeffrey Hunter was the captain of the Enterprise. I saw this precursor show in college when Gene Roddenberry was invited to speak on campus.
This is about the only fan site that I have seen where people seem to be deliberately agnostic, no, more than that, nearly atheistic, about such "origins" or "precursor" versions.
Why?
I think Richfed, it ties in very neatly with your pride of ownership in the Director's Cut, and in your unshakeable belief that you and the fans on this site had input into what ended up in this version, this belief that the Director's Cut was YOUR BABY. It ties in with this lack of enthusiasm on your part in looking further into digging up this other Original Theatrical Version.
And so, my conclusion, from all of this, is that strangest of all, this website is no longer a fan site about the movie "Last of the Mohicans" as a whole, but now is more about the Director's Cut only. Yes, that would explain the prominence of the thread asking people to name their favorite scene from the Director's Cut on this message Board.
By the way, did I ever tell you? I think the Director's Cut sucks, and so do a lot of other people. And furthermore, I think the differences between the Director's Cut and the Second Theatrical Version are trivial - the biggest changes were from the First Theatrical Version to the Second.
All you LOTM fans on this message board, read this - it's important - the First Theatrical |
Conan, what is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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richfed
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 05:03:01 AM
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Yes ... demanding, presumptuous, illogical, demeaning ... weird. Sorry I bothered. Do I owe you answers? I think not.
Bye. |
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Theresa
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 07:00:25 AM
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You know...I don't recall anymore romance between Uncas and Alice (which I believe is the "drive" behind your comments, GP) nor between Hawkeye and Cora in the original release, which I did see in 1992 in the theater.
Sorry, but I don't understand your rants, concerns, nor your accusations.  |
Theresa |
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Gadget Girl
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 08:02:44 AM
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I thought a "DIRECTOR'S CUT" was just that - an re-edited version of a movie that more closly shows what the "directors" vision of a movie is/was. NOT a "fan's" cut, or "We'd like to see more of these scenes please" cut. GP, if you don't like the Directors Cut version of LOTM...take it up with Michael Mann. The collection of signatures from this board asked for a director's cut, showing there was interest in seeing more footage, and that is what we got. More footage that Michael Mann had wanted to include. It resulted in 14 NEW minutes of footage and ironically removed 6 minutes of theatrical version footage with a sum total of only 8 added minutes to the movie. We had heard of the scenes you saw and hoped they would be included but NOT ONE PERSON involved in that drive requested specific scenes! How ARROGANT would that have been??? There were lots of folks here that didn't like the new Director's Cut - LOTS - we were disappointed, but we did get what we asked for.
Now, I think YOU should go and ask Michael Mann if he'd be interested in doing a "GP's Cut" and see what response you get. When you first posted, it was very interesting to see your comments, and I'm sure you'd find plenty of folks here that would love to SEE the version you describe. What you won't find here...is more people to help you stir the pot of whatever it is you're trying to "stir up". Perhaps after you've fostered a website for over ten years and supplied pages and pages and pages of adjunct information about the subject, you're comments won't fall on deaf ears. But for now, that is all you will find here. Had your comments not been so rude, they would have been more welcomed. You remind me of the "term paper seekers" who expect someone to take countless hours to sit down and go through THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of pages and compose them a 10 page narrative. NEWS FLASH GP - we're ALL busy!
GG  |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - May 10 2004 : 08:26:18 AM
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GP:
I don't know who you are, nor do I care, at this point. But I would just like to know one thing. Just who the Hell do you think you are? You have jumped in here "without so much as a by-your-leave," began throwing around accusations and nasty attacks upon someone without whom none of us would be here... I, for one, am quite sick of it.
You obviously have not thoroughly explored and read this entire site. If you had, you would have answered many of your own ridiculous questions and accusations. At this point, I am not even going to attempt a rebuttal or to point you in the direction you need to go to "clear it up any."
To me, it is quite obvious that you apparently saw the same Preview or Pre-release version that Ros did. Period. You live in California, possibly in Los Angeles, (which would explain a lot) and it is not inconceivable that you would be where a preview would have been shown. Would we all like to be able to see that version? I would venture to say yes, we would. I know I have been curious about the version Ros saw, although you have just about single-handedly managed to kill that. Perhaps someone who has more angry energy... such as yourself... than Rich has at this point in his life, should make an attempt to get it released to the public. I wish you luck. Otherwise... give it a rest!
As for the rest of your ludicrous comments regarding the fans here and the website owners... I can only reaffirm what Diane B. stated earlier:
"WE'VE BEEN TROLLED!!!" |
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Richfed, what happened to efforts to get the First Theatrical version released?
