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richfed
Sachem
USA
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 Posted - September 03 2005 : 09:26:05 AM
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Poll Question:
Was speaking with an old "friend" the other day [goes by the name of TGAT] and some thoughts occurred ... Decided to pose the question here:
In light of the recent terrible tragedy on the Gulf Coast of the United States, should the below sea level city of New Orleans be rebuilt?
Comments welcomed!
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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 Posted - September 03 2005 : 1:19:11 PM
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| It will be rebuilt, - but it will never be the same. Any number of times in the past we've rebuilt devestated areas. Besides, politically it wouldn't be possible to turn our backs on that area, - and no one's going to. Having said that, it will probably have a smaller population, with fewer real businesses, - as opposed to partying areas. Those will most likely do pretty damn well, - end up being aa tourist attraction with a twist, - Katrina. My guess is someone already has plans for Katrina Canteen, or something to that affect. |
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Emily
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - September 03 2005 : 7:39:55 PM
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I know it would be hard to the people to rebuild a little way off, because of the history of the place but, wouldn't the people be safer if they would get out of that "bowl"? I don't mean abandon the place entirely. That's really not possible, but move most of the housing and such up out of there, and rebuild the businesses and the little things that make New Orleans New Orleans in the same place they were. That way, in a future storm, there won't be so much loss of life.
God Bless
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"It is the unknown we fear when looking upon death and darkness, nothing more." |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - September 03 2005 : 8:31:37 PM
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| Tough call Emily, - where do we stop at making people "safe"? After all, almost no one's "definition of safe" is the same. Look at how many times hurricanes have nailed Florida, - but people quite voluntarily decide that's where they want to live. Many folks in California live on or near fault lines, - knowing full well the possible, and perhaps likely consequences. I think we need to let folks live where they want, - but in doing so, they also have assume the risk and responsibility. |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 08:48:08 AM
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I believe that New Orleans should be rebuilt if there are some drastic changes made to the levee system. Like MG said, people will always live somewhere that is vulnerable to Mother Nature's fury, and New Orleans is one of those places.
Back in 1998,some Louisiana State University scientists actually had plans for a system that would hold back the water if such a strong hurricane came through, but due to cost and other comsiderations, it was pushed to the side. It is called Coast 2050. The city of New Orleans could have been saved. I know that the cost would have been in the billions of dollars to do this, but we spend billions on some really stupid things, so why didn't we spend it on saving a city like New Orleans????
Love,
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 09:42:09 AM
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I read a little more about Coast 2050, and even if they had started the project, it would have taken 30 years for it to be completed, so even that wouldn't have saved the city.
I also read that New Orleans is sinking a third of an inch every year. One day New Orleans may not be here if something isn't done pretty soon!!! 
Love,
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Chris
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 11:16:45 AM
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MG said: "I think we need to let folks live where they want, - but in doing so, they also have assume the risk and responsibility."
The problem is, of course, that they take the risks, but not the responsibility. Who do you think is going to pay for the rebuilding of New Orleans? We all are, either through the federal government, our donations, or higher insurance costs.
That's what bothers me. I live in an active earthquake zone, and I pay for very expensive earthquake insurance. I probably wouldn't qualify for any government aid because of that. But I'd still wind up paying for rebuilding for others who didn't buy the insurance. I don't think that's fair. Charitable, maybe, but I like to choose who I donate to.
Chris |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 11:36:58 AM
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| While I understand your point Chris, - we, as a country, have helped other citizens any number of times. Perhaps one of the best examples is Florida. The place is almost a magnet for hurricanes, but we still help when disaster hits them, again & again, & again. The only way to prevent it, - is to make it, or other similar places "off-limits" to development. Politically that simply isn't going to happen. How many times have we helped folks in quake zones, or places that are subject to mud slides, or fires spread by the Santa Anna winds? We can't turn our back on fellow citizen in trouble. Folks who live in high risk areas, are subject to higher insurance costs everywhere. Besides, do we really want everyone living in Indiania? ;) |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 12:05:28 PM
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Besides, do we really want everyone living in Indiania? ;)
Too cold in Indiana.  Those of us in the south would consider winter time in Indiana a natural disaster!!!
Love,
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Chris
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 6:42:18 PM
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I agree with what you say, MG. The country is always extremely generous and ready and willing to help those in need, not only in the US, but around the world. My point was that many people living in high risk areas in this country do not take personal responsibility for the risk they assume by living there. Many of course, cannot. Cities always have their needy populations who barely survive with the essentials. It's a sad situation in New Orleans, one that will take many years to resolve.
Chris |
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Emily
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 9:08:21 PM
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MG, you've gotta a point.
What I mean is what you said yourself. " I think we need to let folks live where they want,- but in doing so, they also have to assume the risk and responsibility." I'm am just sick of hearing those few same interviews with those people NOT willing to assume responsibility. I know, the media usually picks out the loudest, most obnoxious (-sp?) people to interview (the squeaky wheel gets the grease), but these people keep complaining, blaming their current situation on the rest of the nation, their governor, the National Gaurd, the President, The Federal Emergency Management Association, and the list goes on. Hmmmm...., I guess I said they should move it basically because that might keep more people from dying. I don't want to see that or hear of that again. Maybe if they move the housing away, we wouldn't have to suffer such a loss in the future.
Chris- I know what you mean, too. I live in what we call "Tornado Alley". It's crazy how many of them buggars rip through here. And I've seen a lot situations where homes, possession get blown away, and it's basically left up to the people affected to foot the bill. I agree, situations like these deserve lots of help too. But I think the relief we're sending to the people in New Orleans, maybe not all of them deserve it but think about all of those who do. They need all the help they can get.
And I do think Indiana would be a bit nippy right about now. |
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Chris
Colonial Settler
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 12:52:53 AM
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When I reread my first note, it sounded arrogant and sanctimonious. I didn't mean it that way. My apologies to those who were offended.
Chris |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 07:46:24 AM
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| You both make excellent points, - and I fully agree that many folks are "looking for a bail out" eveytime they have a problem. I don't support that approach. Everyone must take responsibilty for their own actions. Our media & frankly most politicains, almost make that impossible. As a country we're generous to a fault, and that instills & supports a mindset that comes to expect "something" at evey bump in the road. Having said that, I think we could agree, Katrina was not "a bump in the road"". .... Heh, heh, Kaylynn44, - "somehow" I don't think you really understand what true cold really is! Now commercial fishing off the coast of Maine in mid-winter is cold! Getting in your car on a cool mornin' waiting for the heater - isn't cold! You just think it is, ... ;) |
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Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 07:55:24 AM
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| Emily, I live in tornado alley as well and have experienced first hand the wrath of Mother Nature. We have about 40 evacuees here in my little town and tomorrow I plan to make a contact to those coordinating the relief of these people and do whatever I can to help. It will take everyone of us doing something, no matter how small or insignificant we may think it is, to begin the healing. Just a thought here...many of these people have depended on the government for their livelyhood, whether it's housing, food...whatever. They've become so dependent on that, that they don't know how to take the initiative to help themselves...let's hope that in all of this, they will learn how to fish rather than depend on others to give them fish. |
Theresa |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 09:24:18 AM
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Heh, heh, Kaylynn44, - "somehow" I don't think you really understand what true cold really is! Now commercial fishing off the coast of Maine in mid-winter is cold! Getting in your car on a cool mornin' waiting for the heater - isn't cold! You just think it is, ... ;)
MG,
It will be hard to convince me this winter that when I go outside and I start to shiver that it isn't cold. Of course, I'm not going to Maine to go commercial fishing to find out the difference between cold and COLD weather either. Rich doesn't have a shivering smiley, so I will just have to use the sad little blue smiley. He's blue because he is so COLD.
When I reread my first note, it sounded arrogant and sanctimonious. I didn't mean it that way. My apologies to those who were offended.
Chris,
I don't think that you sounded arrogant. You just expressed how you feel and there is nothing wrong with that. 
Love,
Kay
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~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Emily
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 2:27:00 PM
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No Chris! I wasn't jumpin your case or anything like that! I apoligize. I really didn't mean to sound like that. You didn't sound arrogant at all. There really wasn't anything wrong with what you said.
Theresa, you have a good point. |
"It is the unknown we fear when looking upon death and darkness, nothing more." |
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Theresa
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 3:30:22 PM
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| Well, whether it's a good point or not, I don't know. I know that I do not have the answer to the poverty crisis that exists(ed) in N.O. Some of these people have stated they will not go back...perhaps the towns and cities that have taken them in will be able to offer them some type of job and then MAYBE...just maybe, they will be able to go to work and provide at least a little bit for themselves. I listened to the Sec. of Labor today and she said that some of these people will be hired to help with the clean up...that's a start. |
Theresa |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 4:50:43 PM
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| People moving from one area to another for financial or weather reasons, - is common. Remember the time of the "dust bowl" when folks put eveything they had in an old "junker" and headed west? (I'm sure you weren't there ;)) In the long run, - they'll do fine, it's history repeating, again, & again & again. |
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Karen W
Colonial Settler
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Posted - September 07 2005 : 11:43:11 AM
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I like my brother-in-law's idea. Save what can be saved of the historical areas of New Orleans and turn the rest into a National Park or some other type of natural area. Seems logical to me to have the residents of New Orleans rebuild in safer areas. However, during my life I have realized that what seems logical to me is rarely done.
If my mother was not in such bad health (she is currently hospitalized) I would also volunteer the Red Cross or some other organization and try to help in any way I could. Since I need to be right here in Indiana (where, believe me, it is not nippy right now), all I can do is send a check or two, which I have done. So far I have heard that Indiana has open arms for any evacuees who choose to come here either temporarily or permanently. Whatever happens, I can only hope that the powers that be keep the best interests of all those affected by Katrina in their hearts.
Karen
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
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Posted - September 07 2005 : 3:44:32 PM
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I am a citizen of a country (The Netherlands) of which at least a quarter is below sea level. Where I am sitting right now, typing this, should actually have 10 metres of water on top of it. We had our wake up call in 1953 when nearly 2000 lives were lost in a great flood (not mentioning great material loss). Since then the Deltaworks were designed; storm surge barriers have been added to vulnerable places. I do not feel like I am living in an unsafe place.
I don't see a reason for not rebuilding New Orleans in its location. All you need is more protection. We have done it here, even though of course this is an ongoing thing and we learn more every year. Use our expertise in this; the Dutch government has already offered it.
Ilse |
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Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
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Theresa
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Posted - September 07 2005 : 6:05:54 PM
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| I agree, Ilse. In fact, early on during this, the Dutch system was mentioned and how we could learn from it. I didn't realize, though, that your government had offered their expetise. Let's hope the "powers that be"...who ever they are... are listening. |
Theresa |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - September 07 2005 : 6:18:08 PM
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| Hello Isle, - very kind of your government to offer assiatance in this matter. I'm not sure how famaliar you are with hurricanes, - but they have unbelievable power & strength. To make matters worse, - our east coast & the gulf is pretty much a magnet for them from June until November. New Orleans got nailed pretty good, but it could have been in any number of places. We have a number of cities that are "just about" at sea level, - both Boston & New York come to mind easily. It's nearly impossible to protect our entire east coast from damage. What we have done in the past, and probably will in the future is evacuate the area to be hit (hopefully), - and rebuild the damage after it's over. The area to be "protected" is simply too large to build sea wall. All the best, .... |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
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Posted - September 07 2005 : 6:34:02 PM
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I don't see a reason for not rebuilding New Orleans in its location. All you need is more protection. We have done it here, even though of course this is an ongoing thing and we learn more every year. Use our expertise in this; the Dutch government has already offered it.
Ilse,
I didn't catch the whole thing on the news today, but there was mention of some experts from Holland that will be coming to New Orleans offering their assistance. I also believe that they are sending over some pumps. New Orleans and other cities can really benefit from their expertise!!!
I think that it is wonderful that all of the countries around the world are offering aid to the U.S. Thank you to all of our friends that are helping out!!! 
Love,
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
Netherlands
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Posted - September 08 2005 : 2:46:37 PM
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Hello Monadnock Guide,
Good points obviously about the force of hurricanes and the size of your coast. In this sense the countries cannot be compared.
I think, however, engineers can learn from each other's experience and see how it is applicable in their specific situation. For instance, for the longest time the Dutch were focussed on keeping water out. After a couple of near disasters in the 1990s a new approach was taken: instead of cutting the water off, we try to give it more room instead.
In short, I think an exchange of ideas could be very beneficial to both of us.
Ilse |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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Posted - September 09 2005 : 09:27:09 AM
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I saw on the news this morning that The Netherlands and Germany are sending pumps over to assist with "de-watering" (a new term coined by the Army Corps of Engineers) in New Orleans. Thanks to your government, Ilse, for all of its help!
And speaking of the Army Corps of Engineers... has anyone really thought about what they have done? I am totally amazed, although I shouldn't be (my Dad was in the Corps during WW II and Korea), at what they have accomplished in a matter of days!
They have filled the enormous, deep gaps in -- was it 2? -- broken levees with huge, sand-filled bags that were carefully and precisely dropped, one by one, by helicopter. I have no idea how many bags were used, or how many tons of sand were used to fill them, or how many people it took to do that. I have no idea how many trips were made by those helicopter pilots, with great risk to themselves, but it must have been hundreds. They have moved in tons of earth to fill in and reinforce the sand bags. And it is working! They are holding back the water.
They are pumping out thousands of gallons of water each day from the streets of New Orleans, while having to deal with tons of debris and dead bodies that want to clog and block the pumps.
I simply cannot, and do not want to, imagine the horror of it all. I think in the beginning the whole country was just simply stunned, once again, at what happened. But once again, that good old American spirit of strength and courage has come to the front. Once again, common, ordinary people are stepping forward to do extraordinary things and become Heroes.
Once again, we will prevail and survive. |
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Ilse
The Dutch Trader
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The Fate of New Orleans?!?
