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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
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September 03 2003
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 Posted - December 21 2003 : 12:02:04 AM
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NPR's "Talk of the Nation- Science Friday" reported this week that President Bush is considering making an announcement by mid-february that the U.S. will be sending men to the moon in the next 10 years to prepare for an upcoming manned mission to Mars. His father also pushed a space initiative, however nothing came of it. What do you think? Good thing: morale booster, science, etc..-or-Bad thing: waste of time/money, pointless, etc.. 
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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 Posted - December 21 2003 : 08:29:31 AM
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| Thank goodness the Chinese have stated a goal to put men on the moon. It will be nice to have a positive goal for our country and the scientific and economic advances will be good things. |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
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Posted - December 22 2003 : 02:17:04 AM
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| Agreed Kurt. Arthur C. Clarke kind of called it in 2010, in which it took the Chinese landing on Europa to spur American competition. Of course we'll be lucky if our manned Mars mission is in progress by 2010, much less a Jovian project. Do any of you folks that grew up during the first space race feel that we should have made more progress in space by now? |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
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Posted - December 22 2003 : 02:25:05 AM
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This is the view we've been missing for the last 30 years.
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Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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Posted - December 22 2003 : 05:16:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by susquesus
NPR's "Talk of the Nation- Science Friday" reported this week that President Bush is considering making an announcement by mid-february that the U.S. will be sending men to the moon in the next 10 years to prepare for an upcoming manned mission to Mars. His father also pushed a space initiative, however nothing came of it. What do you think? Good thing: morale booster, science, etc..-or-Bad thing: waste of time/money, pointless, etc..
I am all in favour of the progress of science. However, I think at this time, the money could be put to MUCH better use elsewhere.
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - December 22 2003 : 07:48:41 AM
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It is about time we get off our butt, and back in the game, so to speak. I am all in favor of expanding our space program. We need to get back to what caused us to venture to the moon to begin with, that is the need to explore and push boundries. The shuttle program is a wonderful support system, but it is only that, a support system and not a vehicle of exploration (kinda like an orbit-bound truck), and even that needs updating/replacement. The reason the U.S. has led the world in technological development is because of the space program. If we get back into the grove, just think of what we'll be capable of ten or twenty years from now...
quote:
Adele asks:
... I think at this time, the money could be put to MUCH better use elsewhere.
What "better use" are you thinking about???
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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securemann
Deerslayer
USA
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July 08 2002
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Posted - December 22 2003 : 11:22:00 PM
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| If the Chinese go up,we should keep an eye on them so they don't nail us from space.Bush already said if the Chinese mess with Taiwan,we will be there.While we are spending all this money in Iraq,the real danger comes from the Taiwan,North Korea and Red China connection.As usual, there is no consistency.North Korea is a renegade terrorist nation with WMD who already threatened us and we head to a place where we can't find anything.Maybe because North Korea's big brother is Red China? Hmm.... |
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Adele
The Huggy Merchant
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May 17 2002
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 04:40:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SgtMunro
It is about time we get off our butt, and back in the game, so to speak. I am all in favor of expanding our space program. We need to get back to what caused us to venture to the moon to begin with, that is the need to explore and push boundries. The shuttle program is a wonderful support system, but it is only that, a support system and not a vehicle of exploration (kinda like an orbit-bound truck), and even that needs updating/replacement. The reason the U.S. has led the world in technological development is because of the space program. If we get back into the grove, just think of what we'll be capable of ten or twenty years from now...
quote:
Adele asks:
... I think at this time, the money could be put to MUCH better use elsewhere.
What "better use" are you thinking about???
Your Most Humble Servant,
As a country, I would prefer to lead the world in the care of its people rather than technological development. Britain used to have a healthcare system and an educational system that was admired and envied the world over. No longer the case. Why? Because each progressive government did not invest what was required to maintain them. Our current government for example, invested £750 million (approx $1.3 billion) on a building to commemorate the millenium that they now do not know what to do with.
We have charities and research organisations crying out for funding to improve,or save, the lives of millions of people with diseases and disabilities.
We have a now privatised transport system that is crippling the workforce due to its inefficiency.
We have children growing up with no greater expectation than to start claiming welfare at 18, because the educational system has failed them.
We have overcrowded prisons and mental institutions, the consequence being that convicted criminals and the mentally unstable are released back into society, simply because there is nowhere safe to place them.
These are all issues, which I feel take priority over further investment in space exploration at this time. Please note, I say, at this time. I have a great interest in the history of the space program, and wish it to continue. I think a greater understanding of how small and insignificant we are as a planet in the vastness of space, might go a great way to humbling us and taking away a little of the arrogance we have in how we treat our planet. But I do feel we have other priorities right now.
HM |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 06:23:02 AM
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As you know, HM, President Bush on many occations now has said Americans should volunteer their time to churches and charitable organizations.
Let's say the choice is between tax cuts for the $100,000 and up folks or putting people to work building spaceships. Building spaceships give folks something hopeful to think about, gives children a reason to want to learn, more taxes will be collected to support schools and prisons (Unlike Britain, we have always had to pay our own way in college, state schools charging less but still charging plenty)(Mental institutions here in New York are being closed with no replacements), and the rich can avoid taxes by donating to charities. |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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September 23 2002
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 08:58:48 AM
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quote:
As a country, I would prefer to lead the world in the care of its people rather than technological development. Britain used to have a healthcare system and an educational system that was admired and envied the world over. No longer the case. Why? Because each progressive government did not invest what was required to maintain them.
I'm sorry Adele, but the real reason for the failure of your country's healthcare system is because of government monies and mandates for "cradle to grave" coverage. The facts rule you out on this one, for instance my country's government has a more limited role in the healthcare system (thank God), and therefore there are limited price controls on doctor's visits, prescriptions, operations, etc. This ensures the ability for the healthcare industry to make a profit, and therefore invest more into resarch and development. Why do you think that most FN's (Foreign Nationals) come here for complex or other life saving treatments/procedures?
Anywhere in healthcare that the government has touched, has suffered more for it. Just look at the "free" flu vaccine program instituted at the behest of Hillary Clinton, that has caused both a shortage of supply and no recent research (Remember the importance of making a profit as an incentive?). Twenty years ago, our country had over thity companies doing research and producing flu vaccines, today there are only five (Putting a major crimp in market competition).
My wife is in healthcare (CRNP in Case Management for organ transplation), and she shudders at the thought of socialised medicine. Many times I've heard her say, "Geez, don't those idiots in Washington get it? We have the best medical professionals/facillities in the world because we do not engage in that marxist B.S. If they want to live like the third world, have them move to it!!!"
On the flip side, our country also provides for those who cannot (not will not) provide for themselves. Through a tested system of Medicare/Medicaid and private charites (You know, how "rich" people get out of paying taxes, right Kurt?), no one has ever died because they were refused treatment (Federal law passed during the Bush #41 presidency has seen to that). Also, the best hospitals in the world for treating children (Shriner's Hospitals & Children's Hospital) are payed for primarily by charitable donation/endowment.
quote:
We have charities and research organisations crying out for funding to improve,or save, the lives of millions of people with diseases and disabilities.
Perhaps those donations would increase tremendously if your government would not continually punish the producers of your nation's wealth.
quote:
We have a now privatised transport system that is crippling the workforce due to its inefficiency.
If memory serves me correct, British Rail handed a broken product over to private industry to begin with, the repair is going to take time.
quote:
We have overcrowded prisons and mental institutions, the consequence being that convicted criminals and the mentally unstable are released back into society, simply because there is nowhere safe to place them.
Now, you have finally touched on a true function of go |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 10:18:59 AM
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P.S.- Adele, please do not take offense to my statements, I just get frustrated when I hear a British Subject speak like that. Your's is a nation of proud heritage, it is just that somewhere in the first half of the 20th century your government was infiltrated by socialists, and a steep price has been paid by every Briton since then. Your country gave birth to the father of capitalism, Adam Smith, and the concepts of market economy and industrial growth are of British stock. Great Britain was once the world's industrial/commerical/intellectual/military powerhouse, they can be again. The famous "Protestant Work Ethic" is of British origin, as is the "Honorable and Generous" conqueror a truly British ideal. The British Empire of the past was also a beacon of freedom and hope for people, as the United States is today. For instance, it was your own Royal Navy of the 19th century that put a crimp in global slave trading. Arab slaveship captains would tremble at the sight of one of Her Majesty's man-o-war approaching, and signalling them to 'heave-to' and 'prepare to be boarded'. The poor folks, kept like cattle below decks, recognized the White Ensign flying from a Royal Navy Warship, as a symbol of a righteous and brave people. If Britons were to rediscover their past, they would be unstopable, it would herald in a golden age that made the height of Queen Victoria's 'Pax Britania' look like low-income housing by comparison.
Then the British Lion and American Eagle both could ensure a world made safe from fear and/or oppression. Where a person's only limit to success, is him/herself. As your own Prime Minister Tony Blair stated, "Americans ask, 'why us, why is it up to us to fight this evil', because history has placed you here". What is also true is that our own system of laws and sense of fair play are of British origin, so it stands to reason that the fight is both of ours. There are some folks in the world who think that it should not be up to us, or others like us (Austraila, for instance) to take on the evil of militant islam, I ask them, "If not the U.S. and U.K., then who? The French? Yeah, right!"
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 11:23:39 AM
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Oh thank goodness you've calmed down, Sarge. There's no reason to blow a gasket over some random dots on a computer screen!
There's no point in getting upset about the ramblings of some programmer (who with his teaching assistant wife make $80,000 a year of which New York State and the Feds take 1/3 (if we were NYC, it'd be 1/2)). We make too much for the giveaways like 'child tax credit" and not enough for the $100,000 tax cut (and if we did make $100,000, it'd be a $120,000 tax cut.)
Tony Blair is trying to start charging for college. British kids smoking $10 a pack cigarettes are complaing about having to pay for college. I got two daughters through college (we didn't get student loans since there is four years between our daughters so we would have had to start paying the loans immediately. (Again we earn the wrong amount of money.))
Sarge, please don't pay any attention to some stupid factory worker like me (whose job is being sent to India.) |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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September 27 2003
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 11:25:41 AM
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I would try to explain what I meant but it would only upset people.
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Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 4:43:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SgtMunro
P.S.- Adele, please do not take offense to my statements, I just get frustrated when I hear a British Subject speak like that. Your's is a nation of proud heritage, it is just that somewhere in the first half of the 20th century your government was infiltrated by socialists, and a steep price has been paid by every Briton since then. Your country gave birth to the father of capitalism, Adam Smith, and the concepts of market economy and industrial growth are of British stock. Great Britain was once the world's industrial/commerical/intellectual/military powerhouse, they can be again. The famous "Protestant Work Ethic" is of British origin, as is the "Honorable and Generous" conqueror a truly British ideal. The British Empire of the past was also a beacon of freedom and hope for people, as the United States is today. For instance, it was your own Royal Navy of the 19th century that put a crimp in global slave trading. Arab slaveship captains would tremble at the sight of one of Her Majesty's man-o-war approaching, and signalling them to 'heave-to' and 'prepare to be boarded'. The poor folks, kept like cattle below decks, recognized the White Ensign flying from a Royal Navy Warship, as a symbol of a righteous and brave people. If Britons were to rediscover their past, they would be unstopable, it would herald in a golden age that made the height of Queen Victoria's 'Pax Britania' look like low-income housing by comparison.
Then the British Lion and American Eagle both could ensure a world made safe from fear and/or oppression. Where a person's only limit to success, is him/herself. As your own Prime Minister Tony Blair stated, "Americans ask, 'why us, why is it up to us to fight this evil', because history has placed you here". What is also true is that our own system of laws and sense of fair play are of British origin, so it stands to reason that the fight is both of ours. There are some folks in the world who think that it should not be up to us, or others like us (Austraila, for instance) to take on the evil of militant islam, I ask them, "If not the U.S. and U.K., then who? The French? Yeah, right!"
Your Most Humble Servant,
Why should you become frustrated because I, a British subject, make a valid criticism of my own country? I am extremely proud of my heritage, and that is one of the reasons that I become so upset when I see this country head into the gutter. Everything that WAS great about Britain, is being destroyed. But I digress....
Your points about the space program are noted, we must agree to disagree....
HM |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - December 23 2003 : 9:57:12 PM
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You also have valid points concerning the space program, we just disagree and do it well. Bravo!!
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 27 2003
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Posted - December 24 2003 : 06:23:17 AM
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| Best of luck to the Beagle 2! |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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daire
Colonial Settler
USA
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November 17 2002
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Posted - December 24 2003 : 5:15:27 PM
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I have to agree that our expenditures on the space program are really unneeded right now (keep everyone trained, of course). There is so much more in this country that it could be used for than flying to a hunk of rock; it's not like we can't do it. Money needs to go to the K-12 eduction system (when young adults can't name Mt. Rushmore by anything besides "The Mountain of Men"...we've got problems!); non-private hospitals and institutions; to the end of keeping our homeland military installations up and running (we had to move to another state about @ 10 yrs ago because they closed the AF base where my dad worked)...for a few examples. We are spending too much money lending other countries that need help and not seeing a return on those lendings when we could use the same money to help our own society.
JM2C |
daire
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Dances with Beagles
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - December 24 2003 : 5:44:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by daire
Money needs to go to the K-12 education system (when young adults can't name Mt. Rushmore by anything besides "The Mountain of Men"...we've got problems!)
You hit on subjects near and dear to my heart....education and science, since I am a HS science teacher.
I think our country does need goals to work towards, such as the original goal to send a man to the moon. But Mars? I'm not so sure. How about something else....um, Fusion power?!! That would give our scientists something to really sink their teeth into!
But, at the same time, I have seen the dire straits (sp?) of budget cuts in my own high school just this year....almost 15% of our teachers laid off, cancelled: band, music, 1/3 of art classes, AP classes cancelled, elimination of science labs, larger classes, more study halls (due to fewer electives), fewer classroom supplies, etc. I really think that if GWB wants to have No Child Left Untested, there has to be some funding towards education, instead of the decrease that we are seeing (though much is at the State level).
So, I am torn...the scientist in me wants to see us explore the unknown frontiers of our world, and the educator in me wants to see education funded at a proper level. |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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Posted - December 25 2003 : 06:33:23 AM
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I'll try again. (What an idiot.)
There will never be direct social funding to the level needed to fix things. (c.f. unfunded Federal mandate "No Child Left Behind")
The only hope is to start "foolish" things like space flight since nationalist leanings can be taken advantage of. ("We can't let the Chinese get uphill of us in the gravity well!!!") The jobs to accomplish this gets people working, grows tax rolls so there is money available, gets slightly better funding for education ("We need Americans driving these space ships!!!"), gives kids a reason to want to get educated, ...
Success requires four bank carrom shots on the pool table of politics. |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
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Posted - December 25 2003 : 8:16:18 PM
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"There will never be direct social funding to the level needed to fix things. (c.f. unfunded Federal mandate "No Child Left Behind")
The only hope is to start "foolish" things like space flight since nationalist leanings can be taken advantage of. ("We can't let the Chinese get uphill of us in the gravity well!!!") The jobs to accomplish this gets people working, grows tax rolls so there is money available, gets slightly better funding for education ("We need Americans driving these space ships!!!"), gives kids a reason to want to get educated, ..."
-kurt
I'm 100% with ya on this one. It easily creates 1,000's of jobs initially. If it blooms it could create the next big financial success for us. If the US puts a new, stepped-up manned presence in space others will follow. Once the private sector becomes involved, and consumers are given a chance to experience space tourism firsthand, there's no limit to the amount of money it could generate for our economy as an industry. In addition, the scientific developments that occur as a result will be incredibly valuable to us in many ways.
I don't want to see exploration and scientific advancement stagnate as a result of a cultural desire for a Utopia that cannot exist. If something breaks we can't stop to pick up the pieces, we need to fix things on the fly. Look at what September 11th did to our economy- we need to keep moving, think on our feet. We've got a better idea of the lay of the land now, we need to suck it up and deal with reality, adjust, continue. We sent the English packin', achieved our Manifest Destiny, mended wounds after a bloody civil war, overcame the Nazi's, beat the Soviets to the moon, won the Cold War, without another goal we're just getting old. If we're going to continue being great we need equally daunting challenges ahead of us. The Moon, Mars, the outer planets, colonization, growth- a frontier. |
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
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susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
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Dances with Beagles
Colonial Settler
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Posted - December 26 2003 : 11:51:53 AM
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In the past 2 or 3 years, I've encountered something in my science classes when the discussion of landing on the moon comes up.
Many students watched a FOX TV special that "proves" that the moon landing was a hoax! The students start listing the "evidence" from the TV show, and I counter it with science. I also ask them to question the motivation of the producers of the TV show (ratings, controversy, etc.) Still, they seem more convinced by the lunar "conspiracy" that FOX presents. At first, I thought that they were just yanking my chain, but it has happened in several classes, and again the following year.
Even in our age of technology, knowledge, and communications, misconceptions and pseudoscience are still well-entrenched.
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Dances with Beagles
Colonial Settler
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Posted - December 26 2003 : 12:20:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kurt
I'll try again. (What an idiot.)
There will never be direct social funding to the level needed to fix things. (c.f. unfunded Federal mandate "No Child Left Behind")
I am literally stopping my fingers from typing what I really want to say in response. I'm not a bleeding-heart liberal at all, and I'm not in favor of many social programs that cost us all millions of dollars.
But, when it comes to Education, I believe differently, but argument is fruitless. Everyone has their own opinion about schools and funding, and won't likely alter it. So, as much as I want to, I won't debate this issue. I merely wrote my response to the original post, and not with the intent of opening a debate.
BTW--I was a scientist in industry before going into teaching. I am a great proponent of exploring the frontiers of science, and training a pool of capable scientists and engineers! (whose jobs are starting to be farmed out to India...) |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - December 26 2003 : 12:38:07 PM
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quote:
There will never be direct social funding to the level needed to fix things...
You are 100% correct on this statement, Kurt. There will never be "enough" funding in the bueracrat's mind, no matter how much money is thrown into the 'Black Hole of Government'. According to the lastest stats, here in Pittsburgh almost $11,000/child, per year, is allocated for public education. In the same region, you could spend $4,000-$5,000/child, per year, for tuition to a Catholic School or $6,000 and up/child, per year, for other 'private schools'. My question, since the education offered by Pittsburgh Area Catholic and Private Schools is superior (SAT Scores don't lie), what is done with the money 'overspent' in the Public System? Hmmmm, let us take a look, could it be in teacher salary, not a chance! Those folks don't get paid nearly enough for what they are expected to do. Could it be in the salary paid to custodial personel (janitorial, lunchroom staff)? Once again, the answer is "No", those folks are also underpaid and unappreciated for being the 'glue' that holds the school together. Could it be the cost of the public school's superior 'activities'? I do not think so, one of the premier sports programs in the Pittsburgh Region is Central Catholic's "Vikings" Football Team.
What does that leave us??? It has got to be the bloated and redundant administration. These are folks 'appointed' (Read: Political Patronage) by the elected School Board, it is their mismanagement and abuse of authority that is the cause of these problems, and throwing more money at them is like trying to help an alcoholic by giving him free liquor!!!
quote:
Even in our age of technology, knowledge, and communications, misconceptions and pseudoscience are still well-entrenched.
You are also 100% correct, Dances With Beagles (Love the name, as a guy who has had two Beagles in my life). Just take a look at the "Science" quoted by enviromentalists. I remember when the enviro-threat du jour was 'Global Cooling' and 'A New Ice Age', well when that went in the tank, they invented 'Global Warming' and 'Greenhouse Gasses'. What tripe, these people should find real jobs, and leave the working folks alone!!!
Your Most Humble Servant,
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Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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Posted - December 26 2003 : 1:02:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kurt
I'll try again. (What an idiot.)
I apologize for leaving the "I am" that should follow the "idiot" and precede the ".)" |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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U.S. returning to moon?
