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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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 Posted - October 31 2004 : 06:21:27 AM
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Poll Question:
Every year, we hear anti-Columbus Day cries. I received this "invitation" last month, but didn't want to "endorse" it by posting it sooner:
COLUMBUS DAY AWARENESS GATHERING: Monday, October
11th, 4-7p.m. At: The Lancaster Square (Between
Orange and Chestnut Streets on Queen, in downtown
Lancaster.)
A Public Address / Speaking Engagement / Discussion
concerning the 'Great Explorer' - with emphasis placed
on how his legacy impacted Native American Cultures.
* THEATRE ('Columbus in Reverse', with 'Grandmother'
Doris River Bird Woman)
* MUSIC (Terry Strongheart, Hopeland, Traditional
Native American Drums)
* DISCUSSION (Historical readings, reviews and
statements, delivered by local readers)
* ACTION (Sign a petition for the removal of the
statue of Columbus near the Lancaster Court House.
Denial runs high, but the facts are
well-documented:
* Columbus was the first Trans-Atlantic Slave
Trader.
* Under his governorship, millions of the Taino
people perished.
Our textbooks have done less than Hollywood in raising
awareness on these, and other, matters.
For booking, directions or more information, call
717-393-2634 or email: tristan_egolf@yahoo.com
For related text, go to: transformcolumbusday.org -
and see 'Articles'
Columbus Day Has Got To Go!
So, what do you think? Does it have to go?
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 09:37:31 AM
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OK... jumping in here.
I voted to get rid of it. I have never, since I have been an adult, considered Columbus Day to be a valid holiday. This is not for the reasons posted in the invitation above, although they may be quite valid. My reason is much more simple: Christopher Columbus was not the first to "discover" America. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
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October 14 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 10:06:29 AM
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| This year was my first "Columbus Day" in New York. I was surprised at how so many people got the day off, and how often it was mentioned on the local news. In short, the day was treated like a real holiday. I had not expected this from liberal New York. In the past, living in CA and MI, the day was pretty much ignored. No one treated it like a holiday except for maybe the post office. Just one of the interesting cultural differences I've noticed in upstate New York. |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 11:17:04 AM
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CT-R, have you noticed any Guy Fawkes effigies?
When I first moved to New York state from Oregon, I lived in the North Country in very rural St. Lawrence County (Richville). Our first fall there, we kept seeing all of these stuffed dummies arranged in various poses. They were hanging from barn loft doors, from trees, draped in wheel barrows on front lawns, and even sitting in chairs on front porches as though they had just come to call. We were quite puzzled and finally asked a neighboring farmer's wife. Her answer was, "Well, I don't know why... but we've always called it a Guy Fox."
We were astounded! This tradition had obviously come over with the early English settlers to New England and had moved across into New York. And it's origins had nearly become lost in time!
I don't see them so much down here in Binghamton, but wondered if you have up where you are? |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 11:27:51 AM
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| And speaking of Guy Fawkes, next weekend is the battle at Camden, SC, and on Saturday night the British have a Guy Fawkes Day celebration and burn an effigy on a huge bonfire amidst cannonfire and riotous behavior. |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 14 2002
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Posted - October 31 2004 : 2:13:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
CT-R, have you noticed any Guy Fawkes effigies?
When I first moved to New York state from Oregon, I lived in the North Country in very rural St. Lawrence County (Richville). Our first fall there, we kept seeing all of these stuffed dummies arranged in various poses. They were hanging from barn loft doors, from trees, draped in wheel barrows on front lawns, and even sitting in chairs on front porches as though they had just come to call. We were quite puzzled and finally asked a neighboring farmer's wife. Her answer was, "Well, I don't know why... but we've always called it a Guy Fox."
We were astounded! This tradition had obviously come over with the early English settlers to New England and had moved across into New York. And it's origins had nearly become lost in time!
I don't see them so much down here in Binghamton, but wondered if you have up where you are?
That's really interesting! I'll have to look more carfully next time I go out. Now that you mention it, I have noticed a lot more "scarecrows" arranged in yards, than I'm used to seeing. Could be related.
The modern American Halloween is closely related to the colonial observance of Guy Fawkes day, called "Pope's Day" in Protestant New England. On "Pope's Day" people would celebrate the discovery of the "Gunpowder Plot" of Guy Fawkes, a Catholic who planned to blow up the English Parliment in the 17th century.
"Powder plot is not forgot.
'Twill be observed by many a sot"
"The Fifth of November
As you well remember
Was gunpowder, treason and plot,
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot."
"Pope's Day" was celebrated with paper lanterns, people wearing masks, and parades with effigies of the Pope and the Devil on large wheeled platforms. Kid's would dress up as the Devil's imps with masks, and coats covered with tar and feathers. They would dance around the Pope, play with cards on the Bible and kiss the Devil. Sometimes there were effigies of other hated figures like Admiral Byng. At the end of the procession, the Pope and Devil would be beheaded and burned in effigy with huge bonfires. "Pope's Day" was a huge celebration in colonial Boston, with two "Popes;" one from the South Side and the other from North End, the two gangs would fight over the "Popes" often in violent and deadly confrontations. When one was captured, both groups would proceed peacfully outside the city gates and burn the "Popes." "Pope's Day" was even celebrated into the 20th century in some communities with jack-o-lanterns, etc.
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YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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May 13 2002
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Posted - November 07 2004 : 07:31:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
OK... jumping in here.
I voted to get rid of it. I have never, since I have been an adult, considered Columbus Day to be a valid holiday. This is not for the reasons posted in the invitation above, although they may be quite valid. My reason is much more simple: Christopher Columbus was not the first to "discover" America.
Here's what I think ... and I posted something similar years ago on the old board, but I cannot locate it. It may be among a batch of posts that never made the transfer to our new board & server ...
Anyway ...
Columbus didn't really "discover" the New World? I think he did.
There are two theses on this:
1 - The Natives already knew they were here, he didn't discover "them." How silly. Using that logic, nothing was ever really discovered, I guess. Certainly, then, he at least introduced the two Worlds to one another.
2 - The Vikings were here 500 years earlier. Yes, current research indicates that may have been so. However, that knowledge was completely lost to Europeans at the time. Nobody knew it. For all intents & purposes, it was indeed Columbus who discovered the New World ... whether he thought it India or Mars doesn't matter.
Fact is, he took a little rickety ship & set sail westward toward what was commonly believed to be a flat edge. Takes guts.
Without Columbus, we're not here. Throw in Americus Vespucci, and we have a nice little Italiano beginning to New World settlement by Europeans.
I say, keep it a Holiday. He opened the doors ... whether that was good or bad is open to debate, I suppose, but since we're here now, I can't really argue the validity of it. Human Expansion. It's always been here ... ask the Arikara about the Sioux. |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
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Posted - November 07 2004 : 2:40:18 PM
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Hmmn. Swedes aren't europeans. Danes aren't europeans. Norwegians aren't europeans. Icelanders aren't europeans. Greenlanders ... ok, maybe Greenlanders aren't europeans any more. All Scandinavians but not europeans.
All know nothing nobodies.
Harold Hårfarga, Olaf Forkbeard, Leif Ericson. Buncha nobodies. |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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Posted - November 08 2004 : 05:29:03 AM
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| That's not the point, Kurt ... For 500 years, nobody crossed the ocean. That's a long time. Even Scandinavians, apparently, had little, if any, knowledge of a "new World". After Columbus, the colonization began. The floodgates had been opened ... His discovery had World impact ... the Vikings' had none. |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - November 08 2004 : 09:53:41 AM
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I agree Sachem Rich, and I believe that some folks are missing the point. Christopher Columbus may not have 'discovered' the New World, but what he did do would have a greater lasting impact. Columbus can be credited with 'opening new markets' with the New World, and that brought European commerce and colonization.
Your Most Humble Servant, |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Christina
Deerslayer
USA
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Posted - November 08 2004 : 12:33:46 PM
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I think I've only had Columbus Day off a couple times in my life and that was in primary school. I voted to do away with it because I, like some of the folks above, don't think Columbus was the first to discover America. I don't have a problem with some sort of honor for the guy but I never thought it should be a huge holiday. Of course, I've never been anywhere that celebrated it in a huge way except New York City, and all I remember from that was the parade tying up traffic one time when we were trying to get to the airport...
of course, I live in one of the few states where state employees get Confederate Memorial Day off...so maybe we shouldn't talk about whose holiday is better...
I think Columbus Day is fine if that's what people want. I would like people to take some time to consider the good AND bad effects of colonization, and also consider good old Leif and the other Scandinavians... |
See this face? This is the face of a woman on the edge.
Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
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Christina
Deerslayer
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Posted - November 08 2004 : 12:36:08 PM
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and since I'm Catholic, I'm not going to even comment on Guy Fawkes Day...I love Halloween, though. My favorite holiday!  |
See this face? This is the face of a woman on the edge.
Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
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Stephanie
Gathering Sachemess
USA
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Posted - November 08 2004 : 1:31:52 PM
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So Fitz did you go to Camden? My boyfriend went as part of the WWII reenactors. He is a British paratrooper. He said he wanted to get over to the Rev. camp but didn't get a chance....
Steph |
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alikws
Colonial Settler
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Posted - November 08 2004 : 4:53:18 PM
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back to the lost italian, he was a businessman who tried to find a more cost effective trade route to the indies... when his primary mission failed, he had to justify the trip expenses to his foreign investors... extremely politicly incorect today, but fit european culture and values of the time...
he did not prove anything, discover anything, and underestimated the size of the planet.. had there not been an intervening contenent, mutney,storms or equipment failure would have caused him to fall off the edge into obscurity... |
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Doc M
Great Quack Healer of the Frontier
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Posted - November 08 2004 : 5:32:42 PM
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I'm with Christina -- Halloween is my fave day ever! However, nothing
wrong with Columbus Day -- how can you hate a guy who discovered Ohio
and had three ships named, as a library patron informed me once,
"the Pinto, the Beano, and the Titanic?"
Doc M |
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Christina
Deerslayer
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Posted - November 09 2004 : 10:54:27 AM
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Doc, I just snorted coffee over that one! That's priceless!!!
I wonder what it was like sailing on the Beano...
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See this face? This is the face of a woman on the edge.
Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
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blueotter
Colonial Settler
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Posted - November 09 2004 : 11:19:32 AM
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I wasn't drinking coffee at the time, but I snorted SOMEthing... I agree... GOOD ONE!  |
Rose Dupre
AKA/Órelindë Tinehtelë
AKA/Polly Gamwich
Gordon's 60th Royal Americans
Detroit French Marines |
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blueotter
Colonial Settler
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Posted - November 09 2004 : 11:21:44 AM
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Uh... that didn't sound right, did it?  |
Rose Dupre
AKA/Órelindë Tinehtelë
AKA/Polly Gamwich
Gordon's 60th Royal Americans
Detroit French Marines |
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Doc M
Great Quack Healer of the Frontier
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Posted - November 09 2004 : 1:08:12 PM
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Hmmmm -- well, if you ate the "special" rations on the HMS Beano and
had the crew stand aft of the mainsail...hell, I bet those guys
landed on our shores in a few hours as opposed to months!! Talk
about jet propulsion!
XXXX
Doc |
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Columbus Day: YAY or NAY?
