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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
 Posted - December 11 2005 : 11:29:18 AM
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I don't see the point in discussion or debate if every time there is a difference everyone runs for cover. I really don't see personal attacks in this thread... just voicing of opinions.
Hey, I'm sorry if some of you don't like who I am ... I am a conservative & will continue to be one because it is the path I see as making sense. I think I can see the other side - I was once a RADICAL leftist [SDS, and the like] - but that's not me now. If some of you were "fooled" by my look, is that my fault? I am who I am ... you want everyone to agree? Not going to happen. The Sarge & WW are two of my closest political "allies," as far as I can tell, and both are fair & reasonable & polite. I don't see the "hitting & running" ...
You know, there is more to a person than their political agenda ... that is the mind ... there is something called the heart, too. I just hate to see folks pointing fingers and hurting ... I take the blame. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 11 2005 : 8:14:27 PM
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| Good post Rich, - and I share you sentiments completely. Political posts are by nature often very "emotional" and may well evoke strong relpies at times. So be it, - if that presents a problem, then perhaps one should avoid becoming involved. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - January 02 2006 : 11:36:24 PM
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Wow. This thread makes "Lions Den" sound pacifist and benign. What are you all trying to argue about, that torture is not nice? No, of course it's not. And I don't think anyone here, except perhaps me, has any Gestapo or Nazi tendencies. Nor SS. I had relatives in the Wehrmacht, but thank God none of them ever joined the Gestapo or SS. Nor even the Nazi party, few German professional soldiers ever did, frankly. Terribly grim, those first two; I've heard things that you don't want to. And it was no better in Russia, China, eastern Europe, or many other places worldwide.
Surely torture--infliction of physical or mental pain--is not ever a good or nice thing to do. And, wonderful as we are, we've almost never done that, to my knowledge, except for the early parts of our Revolution. Statistically, we were about 1/3 rebel (mostly street and ditch scum, including the Adams family), about 1/3 loyalist (mercantile and professional and dissenting clergy), and about 1/3 tradesmen, merchants, and others who were just trying to earn a living and didn't really care much about current politics. The rebels just tore up the loyalists, and some of the latter died from the burn wounds (the tar was boiling, you see; it wasn't as innocuous as you were taught in primary school) and feathering, and from being ridden down the rutted pike bouncing on a sharp, split rail which tended to split the crotch wide open up to the pelvic bone. So our forebears were not so innocent, please know.
Ever hear of Japanese Army Unit 7013 in WWII, stationed in Manchuria? No one has an exact number, but it appears that they vivisected, without any anesthetic of any kind, local or general, around 4000 Westerners and Chinese, including, by the way, some captured Americans. The victims had to be tied down very, very securely. They were fed better, in isolation, starting two weeks beforehand, to build up their strength so that they would last longer under the knife. Pictures show that the doctors, recruited from Japan for "practice" and "experimentation", appeared to go mainly for, again, the crotch. In fact, they appeared to pretty much remove it. Ever hear about that? No? How about the Japanese-held island, I forget its name, where they killed, butchered, cooked, and served downed American airmen? Didn't hear about that either? Don't know much, do you? And yet you presume to pontificate about "torture"? You may thank me for deleting the last words that were to be in that sentence.
If you're engaged in an armed conflict and hold an intransigent prisoner who won't talk, and yet you need to download him to save lives of your guys, what, really, IS the right thing to do? Who are you going to relieve of suffering, their guys or yours? It does come down to that. It is their guys who are killing yours, sometimes through torture. Before we invaded Iraq, one of our Foreign Service diplomats was captured and killed by middle easterners through weeks of protracted torture and, when we finally found someone to negotiate with for his release, they said "Forget it, he's taken too much and he has spilled his guts and he will never live." But, at least WE were pure and hadn't tortured anyone.
So...hell YES, torture is an option available to us simply because it's a weapon being used against us. For every head that the Iraqis, and their foreign fighter friends, take off--typically with a small, dull knife or saw with much screaming--we should be taking off ten, or more, of theirs. No question about it, how else to stop them or at least slow them down? And make sure they know about the numerical inequity, and send them videos of the executions and body parts to be SURE they know about it. Do it on top of their minarets and use their mullahs' sound systems to broadcast every last little squeak and scream to their masses. And then feed their people the roasted remains, calling it "goat" until they've finished eating.
Qasimoto |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 03 2006 : 12:28:58 PM
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See now? Your post, Qasimoto, is just another good example of the whole problem here with this Lion's Den Forum. Your post comes across as being quite rude to the other posters. You can state your case without being nasty and calling people, who have a different opinion from yours, names.
Rich has decreed that the Den will stay and everyone can continue to post their opinions. However, I must insist that the name-calling stop! Opinions and debate... yes. Nastiness... no.
Thank you for your cooperation! |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - January 03 2006 : 4:30:27 PM
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Yeah, you're right; I see now that I DID get carried away. Sorry to offend, I've just now revised my post to remove the two instances I think you were referring to. And "Thanks" for the heads-up.
Re Rich and a Lions' Den decision, I missed that and wasn't aware that he had decided to keep that thread running, though the vote in a poll was tending strongly in that direction anyway. It's Rich's site, there is much good about it, and I'm not about to complain about any of his decisions or to otherwise start jumping up and down. Besides, I'm in the minority on that (Lions' Den) matter, so I'm quite well satisfied with being just another opinion out here in the woods (and slush!).
Q |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
 Posted - January 04 2006 : 08:20:10 AM
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Thank you, Qasimoto! Believe me, we all know how easy it can be to allow one's better judgement to be overruled by one's displeasure.
BTW, if I may, can I give you another navigational tip?
If you are missing some recently-posted messages, here is how you can find them all.
After you log on, take the link in the group at the upper right of your screen, titled "Active Topics." That will bring up a screen containing links to all of the threads that have had a new posting since the last time you logged on.
Hope that helps!
WW |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - January 05 2006 : 9:33:00 PM
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AHA! So THAT'S how that works! Thanks very much, WW!
Q |
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The Truth About Torture by Sen. John McCain
