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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
 Posted - December 18 2005 : 09:35:16 AM
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Poll Question:
Should the Lion's Den be a part of these forums ... of Mohicanland?
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
 Posted - December 18 2005 : 09:40:48 AM
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I voted "Nay" because it causes too many hard feelings. This has always been a place that I like to come and relax and laugh with friends. Let's try to keep it that way and do away with the "Lion's Den." Just my opinion.
Love,
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 12:44:59 PM
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I voted 'Yea', for the obvious reasons. Free speech is not always palitable to all people, but it is necessary in a free republic. A case in point: I personally do not like 90% of what television has to offer, so what do I do? I simply do not watch that programing which I find offensive. Does that mean that I think that the 90% should be banned? Hell No! There is something for everyone, as it should be. If one is offended by a certain arena of ideas, then simply do not venture into said area. Really simple logic folks!
Richfed made an observation (Under the 'Weekly Update' portion of the board) of which I agree with 100%. That being the same side which professes the greatest love of liberties, like free speech, almost always seem to be the same ones wishing to restrict or eliminate that which does not fit into their own little universe. Form Hitler and Stalin, to the modern day 'speech codes' on university campus, oppression of liberties does not come from the idelogical 'right'. Let me close in saying that Richfed has provided a board with something for everyone; so believe me, when I say, that you can go 'many a moon' without venturing into all of it.
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 2:16:39 PM
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Sarge,
I'm all for free speech, but sometimes that "free speech" really causes alot of problems and hard feelings. Not just here, but alot of other places too. I guess that I would feel differently if it were on a board where I didn't really know anybody but this board is like family and I hate to see hard feelings between some of the members on the board.
I do agree with you that we don't have to go into the "Lion's Den" and if Rich decides to keep it, then I will try to stay out because it can get depressing sometimes. I don't go in there on purpose. I usually see a new topic under the "most recent topics" and you don't really know if you are entering the "Lion's Den" or not until you click on the subject. Of course, we all know how to get out of there too.
So, we can keep it or not, but I will stay away. I just hope that everybody can be good  while they are discussing controversial subjects.
Love,
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 2:26:14 PM
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Well, I'm certain it won't surprise anyone to know that I voted "Nay." As I said before, I have seen this forum be the cause of much misunderstanding, resentment, hard feelings and anger, resulting in people leaving or threatening to leave.
I would be willing to modify my opinion, however, to allowing the Lion's Den to continue with moderated posts. I would even be willing to continue in my role as moderator, which I imagine might make some people very unhappy.
I have always tried my best to be fair in my judgements of people and their posts. The only ones I have deleted or edited were those with objectionable sexual or other bodily-function content. (And this, with Rich's blessing.) I haven't even edited or deleted the posts of those who have attacked me personally. And the only posts I have responded to in a negative way are from those who attack either other Mohicanlanders or my Country.
As for Free Speech... I am certainly all in favor of it, under the appropriate circumstances and following fair and appropriate rules. Free speech cannot happen 100% of the time, in 100% of the circumstances. My children did not have the right to Free Speech, if it meant they were talking back to their parents. In my workplace, I do not have the right to Free Speech, if it means that I am showing disrespect to my boss or my co-workers. When I was in jobs that involved the public, I did not have the right to Free Speech, if it meant I was being mean, rude and nasty to my customers.
The same should hold true here in Mohicanland. We are a community. A cyber-community. There must be rules -- laws, if you will -- in place. One of those rules is civility to others. That eliminates the 100% Free Speech right there.
Rich, whatever you decide to do... I'm sure we will all try to accept and to follow your rules. We appreciate you and all you do to keep this forum alive.
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 18 2005 : 3:49:14 PM
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| It has always amazed me why people get so upset over message boards. Heck, I have been threatened on another board because I said something that someone else didn't want to hear. Strange! All you have to do is hit the small "X" at the upper corner of the browser, and it all goes away. It's just 1's and 0's anyway, no big deal. But I think it goes to the fact that people love confrontation. Just look at the reality shows on TV. All of them play up confrontation, even the historic ones, like Iron Age Britain, and Quest for the Bay, etc. No confrontation, no show! And the news and talk shows are just as bad. They usually feature two or more people trying to shout each other down. Is it part of our modern culture? In my younger days, when two kids got mad, they settled it on the playgound after school. Now, they would be arrested for that, and have to go to counciling. Maybe all this bad behavior is the only outlet left to people, or maybe since there is no final trip to the playground after school, they now feel free to say whatever they want without fear of what will happen later. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 4:20:14 PM
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Kaylynn & WW,
I can truly understand what both of you are saying about the need for civility. After all, is that not why there are moderators here in Mohicanland? The incident in question I am familiar with, but since it was not my balywick (I am not a moderator for the 'Lions Den'), I did not get directly involved. The correction for such problems is already here, it is the responsibility of the board moderators to police their respective areas. This is not as difficult as it may appear, since there are always more than one moderator for any given forum.
Enough said on that; as to the 'free speech' examples of the workplace and minor children, those are perhaps not the best examples. For instance, one voluntairly waves their right to free speech in the workplace, in exchange for a compensation package (pay, vacation, benefits, etc.). As for minor children, both statutory and case law dictate that their rights are somewhat abridged until the age of majority (18 in most states, commonwealths, territories); much to the chagrin of those without children, or the United Nations .
In closing, I would like to point out that Fitz has a good point (Which is nothing new, since I know him as a man of few words. But those he says has the weight of serious and well thought logic); that being a good amount of these problems stems from the lack of a proper venting source. Like it or not, human beings are predatory animals who are driven by competition. This is actually a good thing, since such drive has insured our continued survival against all forms of adversity.
All in all, I can appreciate your points of view; however, I stand by own opinion which states that free speech may not be easy, but it is very necessary.
Your Most Humble Servant,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 18 2005 : 5:16:21 PM
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| Interesting debate, - and I'm with the Sarge. Yes free speech can cause problems, - but how far do we really want to go in protecting ourselves from ourselves? Going into a debate in the "Loins Den" is completely voluntary. If it causes someone a problem, and apparently it has, - then simply avoid it. We can't create a perfect world, and shouldn't try. What's perfect for one group, is a total nightmare for another group. Personally, I think WW has done a completely great job as a moderator, - and has proven the need for one, or more. Rich has pointed out that he didn't see the recent problems some had, - I agree. I've seen problems on other boards, there really wasn't anything here even a tad close here. Whatever is decided, - so be it. It's a great group of folks, and that's what matters in the end. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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Bookworm
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
February 10 2004
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 18 2005 : 8:47:30 PM
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| Although I've never participated in the Lion's Den, I voted to keep it as a part of Mohicanland for the simple reason that some members enjoy it and, as others have already said, if you don't like it, you don't have to go there. And, who knows, I like to think of myself as a tough old liberal (to paraphrase a description of Sgt. Buster Kilrain in Gettysburg), so maybe I'll decide to fight that corner (recently vacated, it seems) one of these days. |
Bookworm
"I've gotten so fascinated with the eighteenth century, I'm going to stay there." -- David McCullough
"Nothing to it, brother." -- Barack Obama |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 19 2005 : 01:41:16 AM
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| Just remember, when it comes to free speech, this is Rich's board and it is only as free as he determines it shall be. Sachems are like that. Totally in charge. (You gotta be nice to 'em too, or you will be left with only one captive!) |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Emily
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
January 08 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 23 2005 : 4:29:27 PM
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| I like to get into the Lions Den and learn other peoples point of veiw. I think its something worth keeping around. If someone offends anyone, fix it. If someone says something I don't agree with, I think I can live with the fact that not everyone has the same opinions as me. But I don't think anyone should just go out of their way just to be mean either. Just be respectful of each other and I think everything will work out okay. |
"It is the unknown we fear when looking upon death and darkness, nothing more." |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 24 2005 : 12:03:38 AM
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I appear to be the only who doesn't know what or where "Lions' Den" is, or how to access it--if, after the posts, I even dare.
Someone, anyone, please enlighten me?
  
Qasimoto |
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Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 27 2003
Status: offline
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 24 2005 : 10:13:42 AM
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Qasimoto,
If you go to the main page of the Boards... or take the link at the upper left of this page, titled "All Forums", you will see there is a whole list of Forums. If you scroll down the page, you will eventually see the Forum titled "Lion's Den." If you take that link, you can access all of the different topics that have been discussed within that forum.
The Lion's Den was so named, I imagine (knowing Lainey), in honor of the Old Testament story of Daniel, who was put into a den of lions and came out unscathed. Unfortunately, the same does not always hold true in our Lion's Den. People who venture in to offer their opinions frequently come out having been verbally beaten, and feeling very black and blue.  Hence, the current poll and controversy.
"Clear it up any?"
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 25 2005 : 10:49:12 AM
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Well said by Monondak Guide, and fully agreed.
Qasimoto |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 26 2005 : 4:03:19 PM
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I voted in favor of moderated posts.
While I have gone there often, The Lion's Den is only a small part of Mohicanland. While discussing politics is part of life, it should not cause people to leave Mohicanland.
The excellent post in my opinion is one that stays on the issues. References to any personal or group characteristic of another poster is (in my view) to admit an inability answer that poster's arguments on their merits. I believe that in the Lion's Den (in contrast to wild and wooly boards that are out there on the web) posts would benefit by being moderated to delete anything approaching a personal attack on another poster's "credentials" or overall political beliefs.
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We become what we think about. |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 30 2005 : 12:31:20 AM
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Thanks Kurt, I found that thread. Holy cows! But, politics seem to usually get nasty. I can't imagine what place they would have on an F&I board anyway, better the topic had not even been opened here; plenty of more appropriate places for that sort of thing. But, it was, and this is what can be expected to happen. Too bad, really.
Qasimoto |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 11 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - December 30 2005 : 12:44:38 AM
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Thanks, Wilderness Woman, it cleared it up entirely. Found the thread; as I said to Kurt, "Holy cows!" But, just a political argument with typical and usual heat and invective. Shouldn't have been opened here in the first place, has no bearing on things F&I--there're plenty of other places more appropriate for such "discussions". But, perhaps that's just me as I'm an old conservative who likes to see things well-ordered and in their places else they cause confusion or dilute foci ("focuses" to those without Latin). And, anyway, I see the poll shows more people voting Yea than Nay re whether it should have been included. (But, those may be liberal preverts whom we know to be ever misguided; their votes should of course not be included) (Heh!)
Qasimoto |
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Nay or Yay - The Life of the Lion's Den?
